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Interior project snowballing.... questions about rusty floor


Supaflytnt

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Typical snowball type project happening in my garage. And up front, I am not a mechanic and am no expert on restoring classic cars, so I'm kind of a novice here

 

Started out by just wanting to install some new 3 point harness seatbelts up front. Hey, while your at it, why not take out the seats up front and maybe the console too. I definitely was going to consider putting an improved center console in...  Now would be the perfect time to look underneath the carpet and see what kind (if any) noise barrier was put down by the prior owner(s). And hey, to get a real good feel for whats going on, gonna have to take out the rear seat, and the stock back seatbelts that had been buried for years and years under the back bench. (And btw, what size are those bolts? Dang were they a b-i-t-c-h to remove).

 

At this point it is obvious there is some rust issues, especially under the back passenger side seat area. What do y'all experts think my options are?

 

How bad is this problem?

 

What is your take on products like POR-15?

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POR is great stuff but I see some pretty rough areas there so you may want to order new floor pans and replace them as needed. Even with the new ones you should use the POR product.

rob

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I was basing my telly mostly from the first picture where it looked like an area rested all the way through above the circular hole. I could be wrong but then again, until you do a real good wire brushing and/or grinding of the rust, and doing a metal strength test by pushing or tapping on the metal you may not know. Good luck!!!

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went to town on removing the rest of the carpet and the black tar shingle-like cover on the floor boards. Here are some better pics. There are a couple spots where there are relatively small holes in the back under where the back seat is. There is one large hole under the the drivers side floor board. Also, front passenger has an oval like area that comes up off the floor. Not sure what that is.

 

See what you guys think of these pictures:

 

 

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personally, I think you are looking at new floor boards.  Since you have that many areas with holes you more than likely have many areas that are quite thin and as long as you have it down that far I would put new  floor panels.

rob

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Thats pretty much what i was thinking.

 

Kind of a bummer, but like you said as long as i have it down this far i might as well do it right.

 

Since I don't know how to weld, any idea how much this would cost for parts and labor?

 

-dan

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I didn't know how to weld either until about 9 months ago when I had a similar discovery while removing an interior. Luckily since you are looking at floorboards it is a place where nobody will see the imperfections, they are covered with carpet and seats. There is plenty of youtube instructional videos out there which will show you just what to do. Also you can practice before you jump right in with some spare sheet metal you can buy at lowes or home depot.

 

In my case I have become more proficient with each section of floorboard, and have done some decent work. I got a 10 minute crash course from a friend who told me which welder to purchase and demonstrated the technique to use. At first it was slow going and very difficult, but now I can graft a panel in pretty quick and have discovered the trick is cutting out the existing panel correctly so there is no or very little overlap. The better the fit, the easier and faster the actual welding goes.

 

Don't be scared of welding. I was for a long time, and it was the only thing car repair wise that I had never done or even tried. Granted I am not to the level of welding body panels like quarters, but I can definitely fix floorboards, trunk floors, etc. just fine and for minimal cost.

 

In other words, you can do it so long as you are willing to give it a shot. If I can learn to weld, anyone can. Floorboards are the best place to start. Good luck!

 

Besides, Jared says if you weld and have to grind, you are a grinder, not a welder. That works great for me, since I have been griding stuff for years! Im very good at grinding. :)

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Looks to me that section on the driver's side has been replaced before (oblong drain hole) and spotted weld on trans tunnel. I have replaced that entire piece under the rear seat in mine. That is a major undertaking since you have to undo the side supports(body flex when undone from floor) to get the new one in. small areas are good for replacement pieces,although you buy the whole piece and end up using what you need.Cut to fit then stitch weld not to warp piece. I believe those bolts are a 7/16" size bolt, coarse thread that hold the seat belts.Clean it all up,wipe down with acetone ,seam sealer bad spots, then self-etch primer,herculiner the inside (roll-on),Done!

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Daniel, I was was in your shoes a few years back. I decided to replace the old smelly carpet when WHAM the snowball hit. Remove everything from the floor, I cleaned the metal with a wire wheel brush on a drill and a putty scrapper. I needed a drivers floor pan and a patch under the rear seat. A good friend is an excellant welder so I entised his assitance. Be sure to cut out all the bad rot! Then seam sealed all the seams top & bottom, 2 coats of POR15, thermal barrier from Eastwood and then finally the pad and carpet. It took several weekends but was well worth it! Here are a few photos..........Good Luck!

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Those type of repairs are bigly expensive to have done. Cbolt is spot-on IMO. This is a great opportinity to learn to weld in floor pans, provided you have the time and inclination. I did the three-piece trunk pan in my 72. It came out nice - not perfect by any means, but better than I thought it would. I will warn you, though: it's a lot of work, and ain't none of it easy, either. I'd probably do it again, though, if I had to. If you decide to farm it out, do some research and use someone reputable. There's plenty of hacks in that business, and you'd probably be better off doing nothing than letting somebody go in there and butcher it up. Best of luck. Remember there's plenty of people on this forum to walk you through the indecisive moments.

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Thank you all for your insight on my problem. I plan on going to town on all the rust with a wire wheel brush on my power drill, clean it all out and see what the the floor looks like after that. At this point I think the driver side floor pan is toast. I hope the other spot under the passenger back seat will be able to be repaired with POR 15, but we will see.

 

After thinking about it, I'm going to attempt to do this project myself with some assistance from someone with some welding knowledge. I agree, why not take this crummy situation and turn it into an opportunity to expand my knowledge and skill set. And besides, if there a lot of hacks out there the old saying holds true wether its money or your classic Monte...."nobody cares about your money (Monte) as much as you do".

 

And being wisconsin where I live, and I'm lucky enough to have a heated garage, what else am I gonna do until April?!?

 

I will update this post with my progress, and any advice or insight on what's going down will be much appreciated!

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I was in the same boat as you on my last project car. I went the route Cbolt recommended and bought a small MIG and learned on some scrap metal before touching anything valuable. Best decision I have ever made! With a little experience under my belt with the MIG I now fab up my own body panels, exhausts, whatever... if your so inclined.

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Im gonna ask this again what about panel bond??? I've seen some videos about it and it seems to hold better than welding or riviting. I used it when I repaired the lip on my trunk (weatherstrip rail) and it came out great. Any of you body professionals have any imput please throw it out there please.

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Update: I have been going to town with the wire brush rust removal and am getting close to deciding what I'm going to do. I am a little intimidated about this job because I really don't want to F it up.

 

I have been watching a ton of videos on floor pan replacement and welding as well as por-15 and rust mort products.

 

My problem is I don't know anyone in the area that is experienced to at least monitor my progress. (Do auto body guys do side jobs?)I called a body shop, sent them a bunch of photos and they gave me an estimate of 4 grand!!! 1 for parts (both floor pans, a rear pan, and floor brace) and 3 grand for labor. Along with the comment that "this is a best case scenario..... we expect more as we get into it"

 

Advice?

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You would spend much less purchasing a welder and the pans yourself. I had a mere 10 minute demonstration of how to work the welder and I was off to the races. The videos should be very helpful, but I would recommend a quick intro to welding from one of the local car guys who welds... do they have car shows or cruise-ins near you? Best place for advice and help from a hands-on crowd.

 

My advice is still the same. This is a job I bet you can do yourself, and you will learn a lot along the way.

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Cbolt:

 

Thank you for the reply and the encouragement. I'm a little hesitant because I'm a total rookie when it comes to welding.

Ive decided to go for it, and attempt this project myself. I have an air compressor and going to purchase a metal nibbler attachment to help with the removal of the rusty floor pans. Metal grinder, check.

 

Here is where I need help....

What kind of welder do I need?!? I'm assuming I will be using a MIG welder, but what kind and how powerful???

 

My garage is wired for a 220 v but no outlet has been installed. Should I go that route and get a 220 welder or is that overkill for this project? It will be relatively simple to get the outlet put in.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

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:dt

 

I may add that there may be a trade school in your area that gives a course on the basics. We have a member here, Steve Levanti, who has restored a number of cars. Steve works in the banking industry, not exactly a job that teaches one how to weld, do body repair, paint a car, upholster a car, rebuild a suspension and drivetrain. One day I asked Steve where he learned to do these things and he replied.... 'I go to the library and get books, what the library doesn'thave I buy and I learn by reading how to do it and then learn by applying what I have read'. Anyone who has seen or benefited from Steves book-learnin will tell younoone can do it better.

rob

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Cbolt:

 

Thank you for the reply and the encouragement. I'm a little hesitant because I'm a total rookie when it comes to welding.

Ive decided to go for it, and attempt this project myself. I have an air compressor and going to purchase a metal nibbler attachment to help with the removal of the rusty floor pans. Metal grinder, check.

 

Here is where I need help....

What kind of welder do I need?!? I'm assuming I will be using a MIG welder, but what kind and how powerful???

 

My garage is wired for a 220 v but no outlet has been installed. Should I go that route and get a 220 welder or is that overkill for this project? It will be relatively simple to get the outlet put in.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

A MIG welder will probably be the best for repairing panels in the car.  Make sure it can run gas, the cheap welders are flux core and can't always be converted.  Flux core welding wire isn't going to be ideal for sheetmetal replacement.  

A 220V welder may be a bit large for panel replacement, but it makes sense if the price isn't too much higher.  I use a 30 year old 120V Miller Sidekick, it's good for everything but thick steel.  Most of what you'll likely be doing is tacking, short beads, and plug/rosette welds, so you don't need anything too heavy duty unless you're planning on doing anything else with it (building jigs to support anything heavy, farm-type repairs, etc).

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I have been using a flux core welder and it is working good. Ideal? No, but very forgiving for a beginner and the price was right. Mine is a 90 amp, runs on 110v, and is very easy to use. The only thing you have to set up is the wire feed speed, which is a dial on the front of the welder. I have mine set fairly low, around 2. Also keep the min/max switch to min. Get you one of those auto-darkening helmets which will allow you to see both when you are welding and when you are getting the wire into the right place, that's important. Welding gloves are about the only other thing you need just to weld. I spent less than $200 on all the supplies and have welded in 4 floorboards and one toe panel, plus made dozens of repairs to areas like the windshield channel and cowl area of my other project car. Pretty good return on my investment already.

 

I already had an array of cutting tools including snips, shears, dremel, air mini-cutter (3"), and a 4.5 inch grinder with a cut off disk attached. I prefer the dremel, which takes less of the metal when cutting, making a smaller cut in a tighter area, but you will go through some cutting disks.

 

I suppose I could have upgraded to a mig welder, which is virtually the same basic procedure as the flux core, but the welder itself is slightly more expensive. I can see a mig in the future for me if another rust repair project comes up, but for now the flux core has done everything I needed it to do.

 

Rob hit it right on, I have done the same and researched every new project extensively before tackling it. Rear end gear replacement and set up comes to mind also disk brake conversion, both I just learned in the last couple of years. Whether its a book or the internet you should be able to find lots of information to get you going in the right direction. My 10 minute welding crash course from a friend was followed by a half dozen or so you tube videos of folks replacing floorboards with their welders before I began that project. You cannot get enough information in my opinion.

 

Good luck! I have a feeling you will find it easier than you thought to replace your rusty floorboards and get the satisfaction you only get when you do something like that yourself.

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Daniel, I have been where you are now ... wanted to get a MIG outfit to do my own welding for several years ... finally made the plunge three years ago.  As you may already know, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of offerings and twice that many preferences and opinions on this subject.  I can only share a couple of suggestions from my own experience, which admittedly is limited.

 

Since my primary interests and needs were automotive related, I took a hard look at the welders, accessories and advice of a company that specializes in automotive repair products, namely Eastwood.  I suggest you go to their website and click on Welding & Fab.  There you will see a vast array of every type of and size of welder, plasma cutter and accessory that an auto enthusiast might need or want. They say their product line is made to their specifications - primarily for automotive work.  I have no reason to doubt that ... features like infinitely variable voltage and wire speed are good to have (some other manufactures also offer that now).

 

As others have already mentioned, you can do your floor panel welding with a basic, entry level wire-feed welder (i.e. non-gas) and that may be all you want or need. I suggest you also consider other possible applications and compare the prices of the smaller full mig welders (i.e. set up for gas) because some of the non-gas models cannot be converted later and others can be converted but it is more expensive than making the initial investment.  As you probably know, full mig welders can also use weld flux coated wire without gas (and you sometimes have to if welding in windy conditions).

 

Once you get across that bridge, you need to consider how large of a mig welder you need and if you will ever want to weld aluminum in addition to steel.  I knew I might want to weld some structural steel like angles, flats and channels up to at least 1/4" or more in addition to sheets and tubing so I opted for the larger Eastwood 175.  Another reason to go to that level was that Eastwood includes a free spool gun ($125 value) for welding aluminum.  I have since had the need to weld a bunch of 1/4" aluminum angle and it takes high heat (a lot of volts/amps) to properly vaporize aluminum wire for effective welding.  BTW, you'll want a spool gun to weld much aluminum since the wire is usually too soft to feed all the way from the machine out to the welding tip without slipping or jamming. Yes, there are guys on Youtube that will show you how without a spool gun if you want to take the risk.

 

Another suggestion is to look carefully at package deals that include the basic accessories with the welder.  Since you are just starting out, you will need an auto-darkening helmet, gloves, welding wire, tip pliers, stainless steel brush and an assortment of "consumables" including various diameter replaceable tips, and nozzles.  Since large mig welders have considerable weight, you will also appreciate a welding cart to move it and a heavy gas bottle around and store your accessories.  Of course, you can buy all of that stuff separately, but you can often get a significant break on the total cost if you buy a complete package if it is offered with the welder you want.  Most welders come with some wire and accessories but I actually got a "Black Friday" package deal on the Eastwood 175 that also included the helmet, cart and gloves.  One accessory I added was Eastwood's spot welding kit for $25.  It is a vice grip with a special "Y" shaped nose for holding sheet metal and positioning the spot and a special nozzle with stand-off ears to set the perfect distance for the momentary spot weld.  I love it ... makes perfect spot welds and I also use it for tacking sheet metal and exhaust pipes.

 

If you don't have to have all new equipment, another great way to get an instant set-up is to buy a complete one at an estate sale.  I picked up a complete Century 130A 120V mig outfit, including  a full medium sized gas bottle, wire spools, helmet, gloves and welding shirt at an estate sale in MN for $200.  I had to add a cart and an auto darkening helmet but I'm still under $300 total investment and it works beautifully.

 

If you will be fabricating stuff away from the car, you will want a basic welding table which you can build or buy (Harbor Freight has a very reasonable one).

 

Mig welding requires bottled gas, of course.  You can rent or buy the bottles (another decision) ... I took the longer view and bought two smaller bottles, one for steel welding (75% Argon/25% CO2) and one for aluminum welding (100% Argon).

 

As you know, the smaller mig welders can operate effectively on 120V AC but the larger ones require 220V.  I simply attached a separate outlet box and plug to the bottom of my breaker panel in my garage and connected to an existing 40 amp circuit breaker that also runs my boat lift (never at the same time, of course). I plan to get or make a heavy extension cord with the proper plugs to give me more operating room and reach outside my garage.

 

Finally, in addition to books and instruction manuals, I suggest you watch the instructional videos that welder manufactures make available on their websites.  Eastwood actually has many professional videos available on YouTube.  Last week, I wanted some specific advice on how to properly weld exhaust pipe so I could adapt my new mid-length headers to the rest of the exhaust system.  I found an Eastwood video on how to weld thin material and their experienced instructor actually used an Eastwood 175 in the demonstration.  I would have really screwed up that project without the tips on smaller wire size, lower voltage and the use of copper backing plates to avoid burn-through.  You can use those tips on your floor panel project.  Here's a LINK to get you to their videos on Youtube.

 

Okay there are my suggestions, for what its worth ... good luck and have fun!

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