Q-Jet Basics.........Need some help

[wallaby]

I think everyone goes through this stuff when they bring home a new car that's....old.

My problem is I figure if that stock original part only lasted for 40+ years, there must be a better part to replace it with. LOL

Some of the new technology is nice to have, but don't forget that the old analog stuff is tried and true.

 

Do a double check to make sure your battery ground cable is firmly connected to a good clean spot on your engine.

I was spending a lot of money on parts and had to use jumper cables to get any results, and once started I was afraid to turn it off.

I did my diagnosis in the wrong order. New battery cables were the last item on my "replace" list, and when I was taking off the old ground cable I found that the hold-down bolt has backed way off and was hardly holding up that end of the cable. D'oh!

 

Well, It's good to know I have a new starter, battery, and cables.... and I know my car is faster now with all the weight reduction I did to my wallet.

 

Also, do you have some fresh gas in that thing? I know my lawn mower hates old fuel, same thing with cars.

 

As for that funky clip, I've seen them plenty of times but don't recall a Q-jet using one. It is a part that usually comes with a rebuild kit, and might be a cheap replacement for a tiny hairpin (Jesus) clip. It fits over a groove in a shaft and gets squeezed with pliers so it can't fall off.

You guys with mechanical choke coils might have seen it under the choke coil cover? All my stuff is electric choke. Geez... I can remember trying to manipulate that tiny hairpin clip somewhere..

[NWmonte71]

Thanks for the reply, Wallaby. My monte is very original, but many items were in question due to age and condition. I found spark plug wires with cuts into the braiding, corroded rotor under distributor cap, corroded negative battery cable, and other small things that make a big difference in starting. The car has really done more sitting than driving in recent years. Are there specific places where grounding straps are located on these cars? If so, I would like to find them on my car and make sure they are firmly attached and clean.

[stangeba]

 

My 71, NO A/C, 350 4BBL has the main battery ground cable attached to the top of the Alternator bracket.

There is a small wire on the same (-) negative battery cable, that attaches to the right ft fender.

Bruce

[NWmonte71]

P4290007.jpg

 

My 71, NO A/C, 350 4BBL has the main battery ground cable attached to the top of the Alternator bracket.

There is a small wire on the same (-) negative battery cable, that attaches to the right ft fender.

Bruce

Bruce, my engine compartment looks very similar to yours and has the same cable attachment to the alternator bracket w/small ground wire also going to the right fender. I replaced the battery negative cable due to green corrosion. I also replaced the small ground wire going to the fender (same green corrosion). My 350 is 270hp model with factory A/C. 

[Sam (Bones)]

if you are going to install the Pertronix kit, make sure you buy/use their coil for it, I know many that have had the Pertronix fail and the common thing was the coil

[Rob Peters]

P4290007.jpg

 

My 71, NO A/C, 350 4BBL has the main battery ground cable attached to the top of the Alternator bracket.

There is a small wire on the same (-) negative battery cable, that attaches to the right ft fender.

Bruce

Bruce, my 70 350 2brl is exactly the same. From experience I know if that small ground wire to the fender is missing, broken, loose or corroded where it attaches to the fender all of your lights will flicker when the motor is running.

rob

[NWmonte71]

UPDATE: Back at it again and started to install the new Pertronix Ignitor I system into my original points distributor. During the install, I noticed my main distributor shaft had a decent amount of up & down play. Reading the Pertronix instructions, I ended up having to use both distributor gear shims, just to reach the max air gap of 0.060". I tried re-installing the distributor into the engine and just could not get the gears to mesh and the rotor to point at the mark I previously made before. Another bit of information, the distributor was hard to pull out, it needed a lot of rocking and jiggling to get it out. Frustrated, I ended up pulling the distributor out and tried spinning the gear teeth by hand. Spinning the distributor gear by hand seemed rough and had a lot of friction. I decided to take the shaft out and found some interesting things............  A "homemade" looking brass pipe cut crooked was at the bottom region of the shaft and the steel distributor shaft was grooved and worn down. The upper brass bushing near the rotor was seized onto the steel shaft and was grooved on the outside (spinning inside the distributor aluminum housing?) Too many things looked unacceptable and out of place. I do not have a spare points style distributor to compare it to. At this point, I want to get a complete replacement and know all components are true and in correct working order. Anyone have suggestions on where to buy one? I still plan to install the Pertronix Ignitor kit. Honestly, it would be great to find a member who replaced their good working points distributor for a modern HEI distributor. I'd happily work a deal. Any help or suggestions on what direction I should go is greatly appreciated.

[Mo's70MCs]

Rockauto.com will ship it to you. Sometimes shipping can​ be a little expensive if you want it right away but if you willing to wait it will be at your doorstep pretty quick.

[NWmonte71]

Rockauto.com will ship it to you. Sometimes shipping can​ be a little expensive if you want it right away but if you willing to wait it will be at your doorstep pretty quick.

Rod, I was starting to think that no one carried OEM style points distributors anymore. I went to Rockauto and found 3 different choices. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Mo's70MCs]

Rod, I was starting to think that no one carried OEM style points distributors anymore. I went to Rockauto and found 3 different choices. Thanks for the suggestion!

Not a problem! You're welcome, I used to be a firm believer on leaving things as they were.. until I discovered that I was spending some serious money on (blue streak) points, being that the quality of points had demished. The uniset style kinda sucked cause for the most part they had a tendency to float at higher rev's and came with a much higher price. I finally threw in the towel and went HEI.. It gave me all I was looking for except for the original look under the hood. Besides that unless you're​ buying NOS you're probably buying reboxed or repackeged Chinese. Good luck!

[NWmonte71]

I read several reviews on people buying replacement metal fuel lines from Inline, Classic, and others. Almost all of the reviews were bad, people complained about being wrong length and incorrect bends. Some folks even went as far as saying, "Don't bother with any aftermarket company, your better off making your own with a flaring tool & bender". I do have these tools, but decided to give OPG (Original Parts Group) a try. They specifically sell the 350cid/270 hp model, pump to carb steel line made by Fine Lines. This company is advertising "Made in the USA"". I ordered one and will see how good the fitment/quality is. 

I received my new metal fuel line from OPG (Fine Lines) in the mail today. What a joke. The fuel line is not even close to fitting without major bend modifications. The fuel line was specifically marketed for the 350cid 270hp, which I have. I decided to get out my Eastwood tool for bending fuel/brake lines and very carefully tweaking the line to make it route properly. One of the OEM bends above the fuel pump require (2) 90 degree bends within just a couple of inches. Making multiple tight bends with 3/8 metal line is just about impossible with a hand-held tool. I ended up deforming a bend so bad it put a kink into it. My new OPG $26.00, "Made in the USA" 350cid 270hp fuel line is now scrap metal. It is true what many people said on "pre-made" reviews.......Don't bother, make your own so you are the quality control. Tomorrow I will be heading down to my local auto parts store for a stick of 3/8 fuel line and build my own. I have the tools and have built a complete brake line system for another classic in the past. Just frustrating how items are not bolt on and go right out of the box. 

[stangeba]

Interesting story on the fuel line problem. I was very very lucky, over 20 years ago, a local small machine shop, who did all types of work for DuPont, was kind enough to make a fuel line for me for my stock 71 350 4BBL. When he was finished he had made two, out of stainless, including turning the fittings and said it was one of the most difficult (minor small) jobs he had done. He didn't charge me a dime! (probably passed along the cost to the next project)

I installed one and it fit perfectly. I took 2 pictures of it, if it helps any.

Bruce

[NWmonte71]

Interesting story on the fuel line problem. I was very very lucky, over 20 years ago, a local small machine shop, who did all types of work for DuPont, was kind enough to make a fuel line for me for my stock 71 350 4BBL. When he was finished he had made two, out of stainless, including turning the fittings and said it was one of the most difficult (minor small) jobs he had done. He didn't charge me a dime! (probably passed along the cost to the next project)

I installed one and it fit perfectly. I took 2 pictures of it, if it helps any.

Bruce

IMG_1005.JPG

IMG_1006.JPG

 

Interesting story on the fuel line problem. I was very very lucky, over 20 years ago, a local small machine shop, who did all types of work for DuPont, was kind enough to make a fuel line for me for my stock 71 350 4BBL. When he was finished he had made two, out of stainless, including turning the fittings and said it was one of the most difficult (minor small) jobs he had done. He didn't charge me a dime! (probably passed along the cost to the next project)

I installed one and it fit perfectly. I took 2 pictures of it, if it helps any.

Bruce

IMG_1005.JPG

IMG_1006.JPG

Bruce, thank you so much!  The pictures help me a lot actually. My existing fuel line has a lot more extra twists and bends in it than the one you have pictured. Your fuel line in the pictures look much more simple and clean. The bends also look basic and gradual. With my tools, I'm confident I can get this. Again, I appreciate the photos!       

-Chris

[NWmonte71]

UPDATE: I installed my new Pertronix Ignitor 1 into a newly reman'd Delco Remy points-style distrbutor. I was able to drop in the distributor and start to tackle the wiring. I ran into some unanswered questions when reading the installation instructions. The Pertronix unit I am using is their original Ignitor 1. The instructions say you can use any points style coil as long as the coil has a minimum of 1.5 ohms of resistance. My original Delco Remy coil measured near 2.0 ohms, so I decided to use it. The directions also say that the original ballast resister should not be changed in any way. My question is.........I have read so many conflicting comments on how to wire up these units. Some folks say to run a separate 12V power wire from the ignition fuse block and eliminate/by-pass all the existing ballast wiring. Pertronix does not mention any of that in their directions. Some folks also say that an OEM coil will not work or will damage your new Ignitor electronic ignition and that you must use a "Flamethrower" unit from Pertronix. For the positive side of the coil, I have 3 factory wires............ (pink ballast/resistance wire, yellow goes to "R" terminal on starter solenoid, and black wire coming from a capacitor located outside of the coil holding bracket). Do I just reconnect all these wires as they were before or eliminate just the yellow and black wire? Pertronix does not specifically cover any of these wires in their instructions. I really do not want to damage my new Pertronix unit and or make starting difficult for me. Perhaps someone can guide me through what I need to do.  

[Mo's70MCs]

I wish I could help with the pertronix hook-up, I have never used one. Although a coil is a coil, the difference? One style uses an external ballast and the other does not. Knowing the type you have is essentially the importance, remember the ballast resistor drops the voltage to the coil so not to heat it up while it's being used, also it extends points life.. now the reason maybe that the pertronix system requires a coil that does not require a ballasted coil. Looking at the wiring schematic it shows that all wiring hook up is done before the ballast resistor, hence I would assume a 12v power hook up. If in doubt I would assume that they have a tech support at pertronix. Good luck!

[wallaby]

The black wire going to the external capacitor isn't going to affect the ignition, it just quiets the ignition noise from coming thru the radio.

The Yellow wire is important; it supplies power to the ignition when you have the key twisted into the "start" position. If you leave the wire from the starter unhooked, the engine will crank but not start....  or sometimes you get lucky and it will start just as you let go of the key. The ignition switch is constructed in a way that when it's turned to start it will power up the starter motor, but it shuts off power to the ignition at the same time. The activation of the starter sends power through the R terminal to give power to your ignition. It's weird, but it works. It's their way of giving a full 12 volts to the ignition when starting. Once you let go of the key and it returns to the "run" position, the starter stops and the ignition is fed through the ignition switch and resistance wire to give something close to 9 volts to extend the life of the ignition points.

I just went through all this when I installed a hi-torque mini starter as it didn't have any "R" terminal. I had to buy a wiring kit with a diode to perform the same job the factory starter did.

[NWmonte71]

The black wire going to the external capacitor isn't going to affect the ignition, it just quiets the ignition noise from coming thru the radio.

The Yellow wire is important; it supplies power to the ignition when you have the key twisted into the "start" position. If you leave the wire from the starter unhooked, the engine will crank but not start....  or sometimes you get lucky and it will start just as you let go of the key. The ignition switch is constructed in a way that when it's turned to start it will power up the starter motor, but it shuts off power to the ignition at the same time. The activation of the starter sends power through the R terminal to give power to your ignition. It's weird, but it works. It's their way of giving a full 12 volts to the ignition when starting. Once you let go of the key and it returns to the "run" position, the starter stops and the ignition is fed through the ignition switch and resistance wire to give something close to 9 volts to extend the life of the ignition points.

I just went through all this when I installed a hi-torque mini starter as it didn't have any "R" terminal. I had to buy a wiring kit with a diode to perform the same job the factory starter did.

Wallaby,

Thanks for the ignition insight on wiring. I called Pertronix yesterday and talked with one of their tech guys. I explained that I am using all stock OEM wiring, including the delco-remy OEM coil. He said it should not be a problem to hook everything up as originally designed to work. If the engine will not start, he said to check available voltage at the coil positive + and make sure it is not getting below 9 volts. If resistance is high and the voltage is below 9V, he suggested to cut back the pink resistance from the firewall and soldier in a 12 gauge wire to increase the voltage. An alternative method also suggested was to run a dedicated 12 gauge wire from the fuse block or use Pertronix ignition relay kit they sell. Tonight, I am going to test it as is and see if I can get it to start & run.

[NWmonte71]

UPDATE:    Attempted to start the car......... the car will crank over just fine, but will not fire. I pulled the coil plug wire from the coil and cranked, got a huge blue spark to come out of the center coil socket. Next, I disconnected the pink/yellow wire from the coil and took a voltage reading to a good ground. While cranking I registered 9.6 volts on my meter. Seems good. Whenever I attempt to start the engine and then stop, the carburetor always spits out a mist of fuel from the top. No flooding or anything. I had my wife crank the engine while I looked into the primaries with a flashlight, I could see just a little trickle of fuel coming out of the venturi's while cranking. I figured much more fuel would be coming out? Another thing I noticed, while I actuate the throttle linkage manually, I see absolutely no fuel squirting out of the venturi's. I'm not a carb expert by any means, but my other classic car has a 1400 series AFB Edelbrock that sprays fuel when you manually actuate the throttle linkage. Something doesn't seem right. I am really torn......... my 71 monte is all stock with original engine setup and I would like to keep it stock appearing. Another part of me wants to pull the quadrajet and cast iron intake manifold and go straight to a brand new Edelbrock Performer package and call it a done deal. I have already missed 3 car shows this year due to this issue not being resolved. I am afraid that I will be fighting this for a while and continue to miss more events. I have no one local to help me out either, Youtube and Online Forums are my only help at this point. What would you guys do or suggest?

[Mo's70MCs]

First I would make sure the plugs are firing.. easy enough check #1, also it helps having a remote starter, also make sure you're getting constant voltage to the coil. Start by manually priming the carb with small amounts of fuel see what it does. Start with the basics, at this point you have to isolate, fuel or spark? I'm assuming the rest is fine.

[NWmonte71]

First I would make sure the plugs are firing.. easy enough check #1, also it helps having a remote starter, also make sure you're getting constant voltage to the coil. Start by manually priming the carb with small amounts of fuel see what it does. Start with the basics, at this point you have to isolate, fuel or spark? I'm assuming the rest is fine.

I checked for spark tonight on the spark plugs. I do get a solid spark, however it is an orange/yellow spark........not blue. Not sure if this is an issue. The spark is strong and consistent when cranking. I am getting a solid 9.6 Volts when cranking. Like I mentioned earlier, the accelerator pump seems to not be squirting any fuel when the throttle linkage is manually actuated and looking down the primaries. I decided to take the top half of the carburetor back off and inspect. The fuel bowl was filled up and the float level. I noticed the rubber skirt on the accelerator pump was peeled off and stuck in the pump spring!  I decided to change out the whole accelerator pump assembly for a new one. The new one seemed to seal better and I manually pumped it to verify fuel was squirting from the orifices. Before I put the carb top back on I noticed the power piston retainer bushing is loose and not allowing the spring loaded power piston to stay seated. This is a real challenge trying to install the gasket and carefully install the carb top without damaging metering rods and well tubes, not to mention fish the butterfly linkage through. I stopped and ordered some new power piston retainer bushings on EBAY. If its not one thing, its another.  

[John S]

My 1970 Monte has the original or what you may call the first generation or Stage 1 pertronix that the previous owner installed years ago. It has the original delco coil and wiring and it works fine. There is a red and black wire coming from the Pertronix unit going to the coil and I have no issues with it. Now I have seen newer Pertronix or Stage 2 ignitions that say you must use Pertronix coil.

John S

[Mo's70MCs]

Well you're definitely on the right path, from experience​ I have seen this one too many times.. first there are a great many that will try and do work on a carburetor while mounted on the manifold. Hopefully you're seasoned enough not to make that mistake, sencondly while you're trying to get the bugs out of it, a constant 12v to the coil isn't going to hurt anything as a temporary hook-up, as long as you unhook it and not use long term if that's what's been suggested by pertronix, a voltage drop or increase of 2.4 volts is hardly an issue short term. The ability to flip-flop the voltage is probably a great idea IMHO. Just to get to the root of the problem, on the ignition side.

 

Now on the carburation side, that's a little trickier, why? Well truly an internal combustion engine can and will run o fumes, without the need of a carb or a fuel pump. Those items are implemented just to control and fine tune the motor, so making sure the carb work comes out correctly is essential. Cleaning and​ careful assembly is important, but adjustments and careful inspections are paramount, i.e., float,,as well as drop and level, metering components, springs, orfices..on and on. I'm sure you're not a novice you definitely don't sound like one. I hope I'm not sounding like a smart aleck.. just trying to help and at times I get carried away.

[wallaby]

Getting fuel is important...stay with that project. Once it's back together try starting the engine. If' you're lucky, that's all it needs. If it doesn't start some items to check are:

ignition timing. Did you have the distributor out? it's common to get the rotor 180 degrees off when reinstall of the distributor. Make sure the rotor is at #1 when that cyl is at the top of the compression stroke, not the top of the exhaust stroke.

Does the carb choke work?

 

It sounds to me like your ignition is working, I'd focus on the other stuff.

[NWmonte71]

I did take out the distributor to install the new Pertronix unit. Instead of rolling the engine over to TDC #1, I marked the rotor direction on the firewall and made a mark on the valve cover for which way the vacuum canister was pointing from the distributor. My idea was to just slip it back in and fire it up. I did get it back in with a little wiggling and was able to match up to my marks made. I guess it could be possible I was off a tooth?  If so, would that keep the car from even starting?  My plan now is to absolutely verify TDC #1 and make sure the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire contact.

[NWmonte71]

FINAL UPDATE: I finally got my monte running! Long story short............ I decided to go the route I am comfortable with and broke my own rule of keeping the car all stock. I ended up ditching the quadra-jet and cast iron intake manifold. I installed an Edelbrock performer package (600 cfm carb w/performer intake). I also decided to eliminate the Pertronix Ignitor and install a spare HEI I had in the shop. It seems now that many 100% original purists would cringe at the changes I made and wonder why I ditched the legendary quadra-jet. To be completely honest, I have owned many GM vehicles with them and never had any luck tuning them. I do not have a go to mechanic who can help me. Tuning carburetors is a dying trade and to find someone who truely knows what thier doing is uncommon. Edelbrock AFB's are always my go-to carburetors when I need reliability. I literally bolted it on and cranked twice........... started with ease and idled great!  Some people hate them and claim they get bad mileage and do not offer performance for heavily modified engines. My 71 now starts and runs super smooth, I couldn't be happier!  As for the old parts I took off........I boxed them up and saved them since they were the original pieces to the car. In the end it was more important for me to have a running car to enjoy, than continue suffering on how to maintain my stock equipment and become proficient at intricate tuning.