Differences between 4 speed with and without console

[Mike Brichta]

Hey Guys,

 

I am trying to come up with a list of all of the things that are different between a Muncie 4-speed setup "with" a console and "without" a console.  So far I have come up with:

 

- the center hump is different

- the shifter handle is different

- the bracket for the shifter handle on top of the trans is different (I think)

- the shifter boot is different (I think)

- the shifter boot ring is different (I think)

- the console top plate is different

- the carpet is different (I think)

- ??

 

The Muncie I have is from a non-console car and I'm looking to put it into a console car.  As I'm adding up all of the additional parts and costs I may have to purchase in order to keep the console, I'm wondering if it is worth it.  I'm just trying to come up with a total cost I will have to spend to keep the console.  I kind of like the look and feel of the non-console shifter but I also like the console setup so I am torn for now.

 

Thanks!!
Mike

[RealRed70]

      Correct/             the center hump is different                           

     Correct/            - the shifter handle is different

     I do not believe it is.                - the bracket for the shifter handle on top of the trans is different (I think)

     Correct/            - the shifter boot is different (I think)

     Correct/           - the shifter boot ring is different (I think)

     Correct/           - the console top plate is different than an automatic console top plate.

     

    Correct/             You may need a carpet for a manual transmission, depending on the fit of the particular carpet you    buy.                      - the carpet is different (I think)

[LS5]

So far so good guys, Dan is correct Mike. The Handle for a Benchseat muncie and a Buckets Muncie Both bolt in the same way to the same shifter.

**** Dont Forget Mike, Yes the carpet is different from a bench seat car to a buckets car. Look under any Bench seat and you will see there is no carpet under it for a gap of roughly 11-12" and almost the whole width of the benchseat. A buckets carpet is full****

**** Also a Console top plate will have the Shift Pattern on a Plate that is affixed to the console top plate. Therefore the Shifter handle Knob or Ball is plain with NO shift pattern on it as its already on the console shift plate**** Lots will tell you its on Both but it is not, benchseat cars are the only shifter knobs with shift patterns on them no console cars had them they never put them on them from all the years I was with GM.

 

Darren

[Mike Brichta]

Thanks for all of the excellent responses !! This is really helping me a lot to figure this whole thing out. You guys are great !!!

 

Question? If the bracket on top of the trans for the shifter is the same for console and non-console cars, can someone tell me what the difference is between the shifter itself between console and non-console cars? Everyone says the shifters are different, but how are they different?

 

Thanks!!

Mike

[RealRed70]

If we are talking factory shifters, the only difference is the chromed shift lever and shift knobs. There were three different chromed shift levers used with four speed transmissions. One for a bench seat, one for bucket seats and one for buckets seat with no console. Each shaped differently. With a console the knob was plain and with out a console the knob had the shift pattern on it.

[Mike Brichta]

I'm not concerned with being "correct" for now. I can always purchase another one later on.

 

I have the chrome level with a shift pattern on the knob (floor shift/bench). Will it work in a console (floor shift/bucket) car without any modifications?

 

Thanks!!

Mike

[overdrive]

I had a 71 402 4 speed that had buckets and console from the factory. A previous owner removed the console and installed a Hurst shifter. I got the console with the car and then located an original Muncie shifter. The shifter handle for the console offsets (under the boot) to the passenger side of the car so it comes up in the middle of the console. I don't believe the other 2 shifters are offset that way. Typically, as I'm sure you know, in a no console car, the shifter comes up on the driver side of the centerline of the transmission.

 

Dan

[RealRed70]

All three styles of Muncie shift levers have the same offset where they mount to the shifter. Moving the lever toward the center of the hump. I have picures of a bench seat lever and a console lever. I do hot have a buckets with no console lever. They are some what rare. The lever with the big curve is for a bench seat application.

 

 

[overdrive]

That's good to know! Thanks for the pics. I guess Chevrolet thought the non-console cars would have the shifter too close to the leg without the offset.

 

 

Dan

[Leghome]

Also the curve in the shifter allows it to clear the bench seat.

[Mike Brichta]

What if your shifter handle doesn't have the foot at the bottom like in the pics? Mine is just straight at the bottom and bolts go in from the side?

[MCfan]

That sounds like the Muncie shifter handle made to bolt to a Hurst shifter.  You get the original factory Muncie appearance with a shifter that works much better.  If you are going with a console the stock Hurst shifter will work much better if you install 1/2" spacers behind longer fine-thread 1/2" diameter bolts so the Hurst shift lever is offset that much away from the driver's side.  If you don't do that, the lever will have to be pulled very hard against the left side of the plastic shifter well to go into reverse (which you will need to do every time you want to remove the key).  Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that the Muncie shifter handle you have will need a similar offset to work with a Hurst shifter in a console configuration.  Probably not an issue if no console is used.

 

If you do the 1/2" offset, be sure to buy Grade 5 or Grade 8 fine thread bolts and torque them down really good to prevent the shifter handle from working loose while you are driving (ask me how I know). 

[Mike Brichta]

Sorry for all of these dumb questions but this is an area that I have no experience in.  All of this info is really helpful when learning something new.

 

So if I understand you correctly, there are (2) kinds of shifters and shifter levers, Muncie and Hurst?  Since my trans is a Muncie and the shifter lever and boot both say "Hurst" on them, then I guess I have a mix of both.  Was this something that happened from the factory or can I assume the Hurst items were added or upgraded later on?  If the Hurst shifter is "much better", why is it better?

 

Thanks!!
Mike

[John S]

In reply to Dennis about console clearance. That depends on the shifter. Older hurst shifters had the offset in the shift handle, that being the case you need a spacer to clear side of console in reverse. I have the newer model shifter where the offset is built in the shifter bracket where the shift handle bolts to. The handle itself is straight with no offset and bolts to the shifter. With the latest model shifter like I bought you do not have clearance issues with the console. I also thought there were only two Muncie shifter handles used. I thought the one used with console was also used without console and bucket seats.

John S

[MCfan]

Mike,

 

Yes, Muncie shifters (including the linkage, body, mount, appropriate shift lever and knob) were installed by the factory with RPO M20/21/22.  Although GM did install some Hurst shifters in their various muscle cars, I've never read or heard that they did so on '70 or '71 Montes (don't know about El Caminos).  As you would know, Hurst shifters were/are an immensely popular after market upgrade for many manual and automatic transmissions.

 

The Muncie shifter on my '70 was replaced with a complete Hurst shifter way back in '74 when the engine was highly modified (I have all the speed shop receipts).  You can see the older style bent shift lever (with the addition of the 1/2" spacers) in the photo below.

 

 

While I admit that my "much better" comment is subjective based on personal opinion, I know it is shared by many others, including some other club members.  That is not to say the Muncie shifter does not work, but comparisons I have heard and read usually favor the Hurst shifter for strength, reliability and smoothness, as well as, a superior mounting system.  

 

The primary drawback to achieving any/all of those benefits by converting to a complete Hurst shifter is that the visible shift lever and knob no longer appear "original".  That's why the Muncie shift lever that bolts to a Hurst shifter (which is out of sight) was developed to achieve the functional benefits of the conversion and still have an "original" appearance.  I could easily buy one of those adaptable Muncie levers and bolt it to my Hurst shifter (probably with the spacers), but I frankly don't care that much about originality and love both the look and feel of the Hurst shifter lever and T-handle.  To each his own ...