Mike Brichta Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Hey Guys, Boy, why is it that when I have a problem it always turns out to be one of those "I've never heard of that before" kind of problem? Here is what is going on. I just completed putting a GM ZZ4 engine with a Muncie M20 4-speed into my 72 Monte Custom. The last step was to install the starter and kick it off. When I hit the key, the starter spun but did not engage with the gears of the flywheel. That's strange. So when I crawled back under the car to check it out, I see that the starter gear was too far away from the ring gear on the flywheel. What I mean by that is the starter gear would have to extend about another 1/2" or more to be fully engaged with the gears on the flywheel. As it was it was not even making contact at all. The flywheel is brand new GM PN 14088648 (168 tooth, 14" outside diameter). I'm pretty sure that the ring gears around the flywheels are pressed on at the factory. When I looked at other Chevy flywheels I had around, they all have the ring gear on the back edge of the flywheel. My new one has the ring gear further front on the flywheel. If the ring gear on the new flywheel was at the same position as stock flywheels, my problem would be solved and I would be out driving right now. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? I can only see (2) scenarios at this point: 1) The flywheel ring gear was pressed on incorrectly at the factory and I have to get another flywheel and pull everything apart again. Crap!! 2) There is a special starter with a longer nose and gear to extend to the deeper flywheel ring gear. I don't seem to see any starters like that. The suggested GM starter for my setup is PN 19302919. I'm thinking my best option at this point is to call around to a local Chevy dealer to see if they have a flywheel like mine in stock and then go to look at it. That will tell me if my flywheel is messed up. Any other thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated? Thanks!!Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cny first gen 71 Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I'm thinking wrong flywheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripleydale Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I can’t say exactly what’s going on in your scenario, but when I converted to a standard, I did have to find a new starter as you mentioned in point 2. I went to a local rebuild shop and he knew what I needed and pulled it off the shelf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 I would love to believe the problem is the starter but when I look at the picture of the recommended GM starter it looks like any other starter. Also, what reason would there be to move the ring gear back from the edge and make different flywheels and starters for so many cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCfan Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Mike, I don't know if or how they are dimensionally different but the correct starter for a Muncie 4-speed Monte has a "steel nose" and is NOT like the starter used on the automatic cars. This is what I have both read and been told multiple times. I have also confirmed that the starter on my factory BBC/M20 car has the "steel nose". I has something to do with extra strength being needed because of the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel mass. I'm sure there are more experienced members that can give you a better explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS65Speed Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 The starters are the same it is the starter nose that determines what starter fits what application. Yes there are higher torque GM starters but you can swap the starter nose and move one starter motor around to different applications pretty easily. I am currently running a starter that was from a 350 Ci / TH 350 on a 454 with an 11 inch clutch. The 621 Bellhousing requires a "unique" starter nose that is useable only on stick shift cars with 11 inch clutches. It will work wherever it is paired with the correct 168 tooth flywheel and the 621 bell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 18, 2018 Author Share Posted March 18, 2018 How can I determine what bellhousing I have? How many different belhousings did they make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS65Speed Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 How can I determine what bellhousing I have? How many different belhousings did they make? There are side by side pictures of the various bells out there on the web. A guy with the screen name of DZAUTO did a great flywheel / bell housing / starter comparison. I would search of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Is it possible that I need a different starter and bellhousing for my zz4 setup? I am currently trying to use the starter and bellhousing from a stock 4 speed car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 Mystery Solved!! After much research and many phone calls I was finally able to get GM to admit that a "batch of defective flywheels" were sold. The flywheels have the tooth ring incorrectly pressed onto the flywheel making the teeth to far from the starter to engage. Good news: I got a full refund for the flywheel including shipping Bad News: I have to purchase a new flywheel and pull the drivetrain apart to install it (again!!). I was hoping GM was going to do this for me (lol). I guess this is why we love this hobby so much, right? Thanks!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Peters Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Glad to hear you were able to figure this out. Now, get back into that garage and start wrenching. rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 Hey Rob, I'm already on it because we all know "there is no crying in Monte projects" ... Thanks!!Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Peters Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 You need to bring it to the Eastern Meet in Carlisle in June and share your stories in person. The best therapy is Monte Group Therapy. rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Brichta Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 You think I will have it figured out by then? I've had this 4 speed in and out so many times I'm considering using zippers instead of bolts and nuts this time around. Maybe it will still be snowing in June ????? Thanks!!Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7tonemonte Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Wow Mike that is quite a disappointment. Having to pull that all out again stinks, but I suppose it could be worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy's Auto Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Another option is a Hitachi style starter. The drive gear comes out an extra 3/4 of an inch as opposed to a Delco or a Denso style. CVR and Promaster make some nice units, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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