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650 HP EFI system for BBC


A_Rescue

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I'm putting together the parts list for the EFI upgrade on my Monte.  Im seeking to know what has been used and reliable for the EFI guys out there. 

 

As part of the EFI upgrade I will be rewiring a significant amount of electrical charging and everything else in the system.  Charging system will be required to feed Dual electric fans, electric fuel pump, EFI, 400 watts sound system, lights and A/C at full blast at idle on a hot day(looks like a 140 amps charging system will be needed for margin).  More to come on that

 

I am curious what others have used for fuel delivery systems.  I see three options.  Option 1 is an external pump and filter(s) using the existing tank  Option 2 is an internal fuel pump kit using the existing fuel tank.  Option 3 is a new tank designed for EFI with the pump included (Holley stinger) 

 

Option 1 is the external pump/filter.  Advantages are price and easier installation (Sometimes) and repair.  Not sure where to put the pump and be physically below the tank and away from exhaust.

 

Option 2 is the internal pumps kits for existing fuel tanks.  Easier installation but the tank wont have a sump and in hard acceleration the pump may get air bound.  The tank is 50 years old, not sure if its immaculate inside for EFI.  medium price

 

Option 3 is a new tank designed for EFI, complete with pump and pick ups.  600 bucks...  bolts right in...  clean tank with the specified flow rate/pressure

 

Also I'm wondering about safety and interlocks, with these flow rates I want that pump off if I get rear ended, or lose oil pressure, or low fuel pressure.

 

Did you include low pressure cutoff switches?

 

Did you include an interlock through the Oil pressure sensor?

 

Did you include an accelerometer shut off in the event of impact?

 

Love to hear what's been done and working out there....  thanks in advance

 

john

 

 

 

 

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Hey John, you're certainly taking on a project.

 

Currently, the best way to arrange an EFI fuel system is the same way that the OEM's do it. A fuel module in the fuel tank with a fuel pump controller to control the pressure and reduce the pump speed/power/heat unless it's needed. Modern in-tank fuel modules are a marvel of engineering, they draw from the fuel in the tank to keep itself full regardless of tank level or krazy kornering. These are returnless systems. No regulator, no return lines.

 

Rick's Tanks offers Resto Tanks that fit our cars and accept a GM fuel module-all the way up to the dual pump 950 HP capable CTS-V pump: https://rickstanks.com/product/restomod/

 

Control the pump with a VaporWorx PWM Fuel Controller: https://www.vaporworx.com/documentation/vaporworx-pwm-fuel-controllers/

 

What EFI system are you considering? TBI? Port? What engine do you have?

 

Most aftermarket systems have a fan trigger, some two triggers for low and high. The higher CFM fans draw a lot of power, like up to 18 amps each.

 

Certainly look at GM AD244 alternators. These are PCM controlled units but can be setup to stand alone.

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I forgot to mention, all the EFI systems on the market have a fuel pump feed. It only powers up with key on to prime then during cranking then during running. It shuts down if the engine stops turning-or you kill the engine. Just like OEM.

 

There are other fuel tank schemes available to control fuel slosh, boxes in the tank, foam pads, etc. but when very low and in turns or during acceleration/deceleration, they can run dry. When the OEM style modules run dry, you're empty.

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Thanks Paul, good work and I appreciate the effort.  I was leaning towards EFI replacement tank due to potential corrosion.  The PWM controller fuel pump system will economize on alternator load as well as keep the fuel temperature low by not returning hot bypass gasoline to the tank.  Heat kills motors of all kinds... I only want to do this once.... This is getting harder as time goes by...

 

I was looking at this RFI fuel tank... sump and baffles and a non PWM motor

 

https://www.efisystempro.com/image/catalog/pdf-library/sniper-efi-fuel-tank-system-setup-guide.pdf

 

I'm fueling a big block LS5 454 with all new internals built for the drag strip.  The motor is in the mid 650 HP range, rectangular intakes, custom stainless steel exhaust currently connected to a turbo 400 (Tremec 6 speed is on my mind) and a 4.56 12 bolt rear end...

 

For the EFI controller I am liking the Holley dominator EFI... It can run two or more (up to 24) O2 sensors and having two oxygen sensors for dual exhaust, one for each bank, will make bank to bank or sequential injection a lot cleaner and better analysis of tune and motor condition.  The dominator offers inputs for knock sensing and it offers bandwidth control to filter out the solid lifters and header noise.  In addition, the dominator will drive a 4l80E and a 6L80 E capability is on the horizon If I decide against the tremec 6 speed manual....  I REALLY LIKE the horseshoe shifter....but I love a manual... Is it Monte Blasphemy to put a 6 speed in it?

 

efi controller holley dominator

 

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/dominator_efi/dominator_ecu/parts/554-114

 

 

I'm just dangerous enough with a keyboard to utilize a lot of the dominator capabilities...  as long as I have wideband O2 sensors to read I wont need a dyno.... just the logging system  which accepts external widebands…   Now I am not sure how to get synched to the rotor for sequential firing, batch/bank firing wont need the cylinder one timing pulse but sequential firing will.  I want to set it up for sequential if I figure out how to do it without breaking the bank... more research to be done.

 

The manifold and fuel rail I am not decided on, not a lot of data on the performance differences between the ram air configurations out there.  Edelbrock has a nice dual plane manifolds that will fit under the hood scoop just fine, weiand and holley have good stuff to...  not up to that decision yet, single plane or dual plane is the first decision to make.  I think the dominator has the tuning RPM resolution to enable a single plane with careful tuning below 2000 RPM's.  I make about 10 inches vacuum at 700 rpm idle in gear.  more research on the dominator software is due soon...  I want drive-ability at lower RPM's...

 

Once I figure the fuel delivery system and alternator loading I will wire it all with 12 gauge minimum with fusing and an accelerometer cutoff and maybe a low fuel pressure cutoff and low oil pressure interlock.    Once the fuel system and electrical system is done I will finalize the schematic and wiring locations along with wire gauge, all components and fuel hose sizes and locations and share it with the team..

 

so I have decisions to make and more research to do but I am certain I can do the entire package for just a bit over 4 grand....   

 

more to come and thank you Paul

 

john

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Excellent links and write ups Paul... The PWM system is the way to go...

 

Here is a good piece I read.... and your comments reinforce what is written in it...

 

https://www.musclecardiy.com/muscle-car-tech-tips/carburetor-to-fuel-injection-choosing-the-right-efi-system/
 

 

John

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For sequential port fuel injection, the ECM needs to know crank position AND which stroke it's on via a cam sensor.

 

Holler offers an external front mounted 58x crank wheel & sensor that of course works with the Dominator: https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/crank_triggers/crank_trigger_kits/parts/556-111

 

For cam, a Chevy Vortec distributor (4.3, 305, 350 & 454) has a 1x sensor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BILLET-DISTRIBUTOR-CADILLAC-CHEVROLET-GMC-VORTEC-V8-5-0L-5-7L-12570425/361543310182?fits=Make%3AChevrolet&hash=item542da91b66:g:lVIAAOSwMVFXH-Kr

 

Using the above, in addition to correctly timed sequential port fuel injection, Holley offers a harness to have coil near plug ignition, In other words, LS style one coil per cylinder, if you are so inclined. The clever folks at EFI Connection offers a neat blank distributor cap if you choose this route.

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correction... I think the kit will be a little over 5 grand.... eeek....

Oh yeah, the sequential way ain't cheap. I went a cheaper route, I used the Fitech LS harness and ECM system which is a grand, added sensors, throttle body, rails & injectors and coils. The kit comes with two wide band o2 sensors and transmission harness. I did have to get a custom LS order cam. The Holley Terminator allows order changes. All in, I probably spent $3,000.00 total. This on a 496 inch 600 HP big block. The ECM doesn't know or care what the engine is. Sets of coils are cheap on Ebay. The tank, pump & PWM pump controller add another $1,200.00 or so.

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i suggest the Ricks Tanks with an internal pump, installed quite a few of them and had no issues at all.

The only safety cutoff i believe in is the low fuel pressure for obvious reasons. The inertia/impact switches become redundant if running a low pressure cutoff.

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Thanks a bunch, you guys are great!... any thoughts on a single plane or dual plane EFI manifold  (60 lbs+ injectors)?  I am going to dive into the different software packages with the EFI controllers and examine the VE tables and make sure I can get fine resolution, hopefully 256 RPM increments from 500 to 2500 RPMs and 0.5 lb. resolution for the vacuum rows of the VE table , that would be 8x 25 effective rows of VE tuning capability to tame the idle and low end drivability... which may make a single plane meet my needs.... maybe....

 

Once again I appreciate all the feedback... Paul, now I'm thinking of a PWM controller on the dual electric fans too...  

 

john

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Thanks a bunch, you guys are great!... any thoughts on a single plane or dual plane EFI manifold  (60 lbs+ injectors)?  I am going to dive into the different software packages with the EFI controllers and examine the VE tables and make sure I can get fine resolution, hopefully 256 RPM increments from 500 to 2500 RPMs and 0.5 lb. resolution for the vacuum rows of the VE table , that would be 8x 25 effective rows of VE tuning capability to tame the idle and low end drivability... which may make a single plane meet my needs.... maybe....

 

Once again I appreciate all the feedback... Paul, now I'm thinking of a PWM controller on the dual electric fans too...  

 

john

I don't know what intake manifold style would suit your engine combo best. I'm running an older Dart single plane.

 

Interesting, PWM fan control. You'd need to create it yourself? I set up my dual fans to start at half speed at 180 degrees and go to full speed when hotter. I'm using the GM series/parallel scheme, which I actually made work in the 80's, well before GM did it.

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Thanks a bunch, you guys are great!... any thoughts on a single plane or dual plane EFI manifold  (60 lbs+ injectors)?  I am going to dive into the different software packages with the EFI controllers and examine the VE tables and make sure I can get fine resolution, hopefully 256 RPM increments from 500 to 2500 RPMs and 0.5 lb. resolution for the vacuum rows of the VE table , that would be 8x 25 effective rows of VE tuning capability to tame the idle and low end drivability... which may make a single plane meet my needs.... maybe....

 

Once again I appreciate all the feedback... Paul, now I'm thinking of a PWM controller on the dual electric fans too...  

 

john

Holy smokes that seems like a lot of self abuse  :eek:

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Paul,

 

I see that the vaporworks PWM fuel pump controller gives a choice between MAP sensor feedback or Constant pressure feedback.   At first thought I am thinking the dynamic response of the MAP sensor feedback controlling the PWM will respond better.  I am not sure if the response time of the map or the constant pressure regulator method would make a difference.  I am thinking the Constant pressure is best for self learning EFI systems...  Which method did you use? You think there are any advantages in one method or another?

 

Thanks

 

john

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I think I found the answer in a tech write up.  manifold methods draws less steady state cruising current than the constat pressure syste... longer life/higher reliability and colder gas.... cold gas is good

 

Another feature of PWM control is the reduction in the electrical requirement. For example, the 5th-generation pump requires 10 amps to run at full speed at 58psi. At cruise the PWM systems requires approximately 3-5 amps depending on if the system has a manifold referenced or static fuel pressure. This reduction in power also means greater alternator life.

 

john

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I shot Carl an email late last night and a thorough response was in my email q before I woke up, excellent customer service!  

 

Below is the email and his response.  Yes using the MAP sensor has benefits...  electrical load reduction and extends the operating range of the injector when lowering the fuel pressure at cruise/idle.  That means the injector minimum pulse width stability issues for high LBS/HR injectors are less of an issue since the injector duty will be higher at lower pressure....  

 

I added an additional few questions about the pump motor type  best used in PWM systems and any conducted garbage emissions coupled to the 12 volts system.  (Valuable lesson learned from an early generation LED upgrade headlight on my Harley interfering with PCM)… long story, I removed the lights...

 

My query to Carl

 

I am very interested in your product and wish to ask a few questions.  

Is there a particular type of pump motor to use for the PWM drive voltage versus the DC drive voltages?  If so, what EFI pump tank motors do you recommend.  I am converting a thirsty 1971 monte carlo 454 to fuel injection and want to put an efi fuel tank/pickup/motor and control the motor with your controller. 

Conducted emissions on the DC lines, are the input DC lines filtered and isolated from the PWM, if not, do you know what the PWM frequency is?


MAP feedback advantage over Constant pressure is a reduction of steady state load on the electrical system...  True, do I have this right? 

thanks

john

 

Reply from Chris

 

 

Hello John, and thanks for the inquiry.

 

Depending on the horsepower level there are several GM fuel modules that should work well. The Gen5 Camaro fuel modules, the SS and ZL1, may be good choices. A specific mounting ring is needed.

 

In general, the turbine style pump used in a fuel module arrangement is best for returnees PWM fuel delivery.

 

Simply attaching a turbine pump to a closed loop control system typically will result in poor low duty cycle performance. Some fuel beyond that used for idle/ cruise must pass through the pump.for smooth operation. In the OEM fuel module this bypassed fuel is used to power the suction transfer pumps to keep the lower reservoir full

 

PWM output frequency is approximately 1khz.

 

MAP reference fuel pressure has several advantages. Power reduction is one. For very large injectors a lowering of the idle/cruise fuel pressure allows for sufficient duty cycles to allow good fuel control. 

 

Regards,

 

Carl Casanova

VaporWorx

805-390-6423

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