Hey All
The Motor in the chevelle has died, It dropped a valve at 4k or so. I've decided to do another complete engine. The engine I'm building now is going to be a 489/496 stroker. I saved what I could from the previous engine, So this will be the new engine specs.

71 Chevelle
489/496 CI (2 Bolt Main)
Pro Comp Heads (320cc) 2.25/1.88 Valves
(I removed all the pro-comp hardware, and having my machine shop use other parts),
Compression should be around 10:1 to 10:3
Air Gap Intake
850 Vac Sec Carb
3/8th Fuel line from tank to carb
Hooker Comp Headers 2"tubes into 3.5 collector, then 3" mandrel bend exhuast out the back. Flowmaster 44series mufflers.
3900lbs w/me in it
Bowtie Stage 2 2004r trans
CK performance 2800-3000 stall
3.73 posi rear w/ 28" tall tire


I'm looking at a few camshafts but the whole lift/duration with 320cc heads is giving me a headache. With the size heads and other components, I'm not sure if I need a high lift, lower duration cam, or high lift, longer duration cam, or if I need a lower lift/lower duration. I envy you guys that have this all figured out.

Here's two or the cams I'm looking at.

120265-12 .634 .640
237 243
.634 .640
112 Hyd. Hyd.

Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft 2600-6500 Lopey idle, hot street & bracket racing. 10.0:1+ CR advised.

This is the other one:

121615-12 .640 .640
296 308
243 255
112 Hyd. Hyd.

Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft 3000-6600 Lopey idle, excellent mid to top end power. 10.0:1+ CR, 3200+ stall.

These are both Howrards Cams HYD rollers. I'll be goin with the MAX effort Howards Lifters, and springs suggested by them. The car will never see above 6k,

Am I in the right ballpark for choosing a camshaft for this 489/496 stroker.

It's goin to be a 90% street car, with alot of spirited driving, and maybe if there is anytime, I'd like to go the track once or twice to see what it will do.

You need to shoot Chris Straub (cstraub) an email, he gets great reviews on the Chevelles.com forum. You give him all the info you can on your parts and what your goal is ie. street/strip?

His email addy - cstraub69@comcast.net or just shoot him a pm.

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

Chris Straub is a great source for your camshaft needs. Also ya might give the guys at Cammotion http://www.cammotion.com/
a call. Although I don't have a b/b they did a custom billet solid roller for my s/b and it works great with the rest of the components.

David

David is right in that you need someone from a cam manufacture who knows what's going on to spec out a cam for your application and yours only. No cookie cutter cams, or you will be disappointed.

JMO..Mariano I would say those heads are a bit big for that build. Chris Straub would probably tell you the first cam is closer to what you need (except for the LSA). To bring the low/mid range power back a smaller duration on a tighter circle will help do that. I would say lift in the 630-650 area but like others have said call a custom grider for better specifics. If you call Comp, Lunati or someone like that they will try and steer you to a shelf cam....

okay, They do make the first cam on a 110 Lobe Seperation. I really would love to do a custom cam, with my budget, I just can't. I'm settling for the off the shelf cam, as thats all I can afford right now. and barely doin that. I'm not ready for the cam just yet, Its goin to be one of the last things I buy, So maybe between now and then something will come up to help my finances. But for now, If It doesnt go the way of a custom cam, Do you feel this off the shrlf cam (The 1st One) cut on a 110 LSA will be alright. I'm sure it won't run its best, but it should run pretty good.

Custom grind is not really that much more. I would like to see some more compression with the aluminum heads

$1200.00 for a camshaft, lifters & pushrods is way out of my range. This howards Camshaft will be $566.00 for cam & lifters, $600.00 if I choose to use the better lifters from them (91161) instead of their 91167 lifters. Summit sells the same cam & lifters for $519.00

And I know pushrods are not goin to be $600.00, So as much as its better to do a custom cam, $1200.00 vs Maybe $700.00 or more. Thats a big enough difference for me to do off the shelf. Feeling like I shoulda stayed with the damn imports. I went faster (alot faster) for less money.

So thanks for the help, I probably wont be back

there's no free lunch, you get what you pay for Mariano...."I probably won't be back"...what the hell does that mean? You asked for opinions and you got them, if you really didn't want any why post? Those are cheap street type lifters that won't like 620 lift or anything over 5500 rpm....as far as your import...bring it on.....

Going cheap is unfortunately what probably got you into rebuilding the motor in the first place. You could have probably spent $500 more on a better set of heads that came with better components and not dropped a valve. The valvetrane is probably the most likely place for mishaps to occur, and lifters are the most notorious for breaking, especially under the spring pressures that are going to be needed for an aggressive cam with 600+ lift. I would get some Morel lifters, and am sorry to say they will run you $600.

Howard's states that lower cost hydraulic roller lifters are not to be used over 6000 rpm. We used them in a motor, they are a quality product but a heavy design.

We are trying to help. Our suggestions are not meant to make you mad. I know for a fact that a custom grind solid roller is about a hundred over an off the shelf cam. And when you get right to it a hundred is a drop in the bucket when you are doing a performance engine.

But since you will not be back, you probably will not see this.

Wow! I probably won't be back! [you said a naughty!]! We all gave this dude some solid BB advice and he is now going off half cocked as if he didn't realize that reliability, performance, and efficiency for a BB Chevy doesn't cost a good chunk of change. More than one converted tuner guy that made the plunge realized that even though the upfront cost is more for American V8's built right the down the road cost for maintenance is a lot lower as they can take a lot more abuse. If the dude is truely mad there is a saying that says "don't go away mad, just go away". Some folks never learn, or always have to learn the hard way instead of listening to folks who have made the mistakes and learned from them and are kind enought to impart their wisdom on others to help them out.

I dunno...I look at the BB chevy and the first thing I notice is that everything is bigger. All the price numbers are bigger...about the only number that is smaller is the one following the words "miles per gallon".

I'm not sure what he expected; but I bet he's glad the advice was free. All I can hear in my mind is Robert Stacks' voice from the movie Airplane! "..The decision is yours.."

Wow, I can't believe the way this guy acted when you all gave him sound, and solid, advice for his motor needs. I have been on many forums, and run many different types of cars and find this forum to be the most friendly, honest, and well educated group I have ever had the pleasure of conversing with on the internet. I agree with what you guys said, you get out of something what you put into it, and if you don't have the coin to do it correctly now, then wait until you do instead of being mad when the half priced stuff you bought doesn't hold up and you have to rebuild AGAIN anyway. At the VERY least you are going to be disappointed that the cheaper parts you put in don't give you the numbers you were looking for because it wasn't made for your specific needs to begin with! Take the advice and run with it, these guys know their stuff, especially when it comes to big blocks!

I always get great info from you guys anytime I have a question about my 72 454BB Monte, and thanks to all the knowledge gurus here for always looking out for those of us who are always willing to learn from you. This guy doesn't realize what he will be missing here.

I came back on to apologize. You guys are great in giving advise. I had/have alot on my plate, and dealing with the car and wishing things were different frustrated me. I calmed down and thought about everything, and decided to send Chris Straub an email. Since a little good luck has come my way in the form of a engine job on an Eagle Talon, I should have enough money to purchase a camshaft & lifters from Chris. His cam specs seem to make the most sense to me, I'm looking to place my order this Monday. Again I am apologizing, I didn't mean to get upset and want to call it quits. I got my chevelle because of my father (RIP), So I'm sticking with it.

Sorry to hear about your dad, and glad to hear you are sticking with the project. Hey we all have those moments in life, glad to hear you had some good luck come your way with the motor job. Chris is a good guy, and will set you up with a nice package for sure. Good luck with the project, and keep us posted on the progress!

-James

Chris will do you right, he's done both of my cars with outstanding results...

^^^^^^^x2. Chris is a straight shooter. I have talked with him several times and he takes the time to explain things to you thing even though I didn't make a purchase. You'll be very happy with the purchase!

BTW glad you came back. Good people here who are willing to help for sure!

David

That's the spirit. Glad to see you are back in the game. No harm and no foul. Just please do it right.

Camshaft from Chris Straub is ordered. Should be here in a week or so. Getting close to completion for this engine. I'm excited.

Very nice!! It's a rule ya gotta post vids when you get the engine up and running!!! J/K

David

Ok, so how close were you to begin with? I know you had some cams in mind, but were you way off?
I suppose the tricky part was dealing with those giant heads?

I was looking at two camshaft from howards first one was a
634/640 lift
237/243@ 50
110 LSA

2nd one was a
640/640
243/249 @50
110 LSA

Not sure on exact numbers just yet from Chris but in the neighborhood of:
650/620
234/242@50
108 LSA

I think I was kinda in the right frame of mind. But I'll know exact numbers when I unwrap it.

The big stuff is mostly done. I got an Eagle 496 Rotating assembly, Forged Crank, H Beam Rod, & Probe Forged Pistons, The Pro-Comp Heads have been completely gutted, all that is pro-comp now is the casting. Howards springs, retainers, severe duty stainless valves, comp locks, comp valve seals, new bronze guides, etc.

Still need to get pushrods, (Well those are coming from Chris too) just need to get exact length, fuel pump pushrod, distributor (got my eye on the MSD 8365), Gaskets (Head, Intake, Exhuast, Oil Pan, Timing etc)Timing Chain & Gear. I think if Chris carries all this stuff, I'll just get everything from him instead of jumping all around different places. Think thats about it. Chris suggest I run a Victor Jr intake manifold. Currently I have a Air Gap, I may do it, if I can sell my Air Gap.

Mariano that's the cam Chris made for our Monte, it took 6 tenths off the 1/4 mile et (12.20's to 11.60's) on the first pass, there's more there if my wife would let me play with it....you should like it....

Hey Dave.....not to hijack this thread, but what was the cam specs on the previous cam you replaced. Damn......6 tenths on a cam change is HUGE

hey Greg, I tried one of the Thumpr's when they first came out, full roller.....227/241....547/530 on a 107

the cam Chris did for the Monte is based on the one he did for the Velle with just slightly less intake duration, 234 vs 238 in the Velle...the trick with Chris' cams is in the timing events (lobe and ramp design, something he doesn't put out there too much as you can imagine). People are amazed at how the Velle runs with such a small hyd cam, it's all in the combo which Chris is a master at. The lift in both cams is 650/629 and both of mine are 107's.....

I think the lift had a lot to do with it too, allowing the motor to finally breathe a bit....

Thanks for the info Dave.........

If you are going to run a Victor if I may I'd suggest the 454R(O) if you are going to do any street driving. Are you going to use a 4150 style carb with an adapter, or are you going to switch to a dominator style carb? If you are looking to possibly go the dominator route AED has an awesome carb they call their Pro-Street Dominator. Check it out. It is as deadly on the track as any 1050 carb, but is just as much at home cruising the streets. I have had one for five years and have never had one issue. AED hand builds a carb just for your application.

Cam specs will be 643/612, 234/243 @50 108 Lobe Seperation. I'm gonna have to reteach myself how to drive the car now. That and I hear this motor will probably be knocking on 600HP & Torque's door. What kinda sucks now is, the New Stage 2 Bowtie 2004r trans I have says its good to 450-500 HP/ 400-450 Torque.

Drag racing with slicks is going to be out for awhile. I could send it back. For an additional $800.00 to make it a stage 3. What really sucks is it's $300.00 to make it stronger. and $500.00 to get it shipped there and back home.

It's your money, but to spend another $800.00 on a tranny that will only hold that power for a little while IMHO would be a waste of time and money. If you have to have an overdrive(I don't blame you for street driving with tall gears) at that power level you really only have a couple choices in transmissions that will stand the test of time. Having learned the hard way it's best to pay up front one time and do it right as oppossed to try and do it on the cheap only to end up paying out even more money down the road to have your tranny rebuilt because it wasn't up to the task for the long haul. IMHO a manual shift 4L80 tranny can't be beat. You can set it up as a full auto shift, but the control module will run you some serious cash. That's why most guys just go with the manual shift version. The 4L80 tranny is basically a Turbo 400 with an overdrive so it can easily withstand 900HP in stock trim. You other option is a Turbo 400 with a Gear Vendor's overdrive attached to it. When you do the math if you are starting from scratch I think the price between the two setups aren't that much different however. The 4L80 I believe will give you a higher final drive ratio, but the Gear Vendor's add on unit allows for more gear splitting adjustment. I know it's not what you wan't to here, but even with all the new hardened parts available for both the 200R4 and the 700R4 once you get to the 600HP level you are starting to push the limit. I know most companies that sell them say they will withstand up to 700HP and torque, but my tranny builder who I trust without question says there is no way either one of those transmissions will take the abuse of drag racing for an extemded period of time. Hope this will help you make an informed tranny decision and please do your research and get the proper converter for your new setup. You can have a tranny that is as tough as nails, but if the torque converter is not right you will leave a lot of power on the table and be disappointed.

I will add to what Greg has stated about the full manual 4L80. I have one and it is built to withstand 800-900 hp at the rear wheels. Thats great. I love this tranny. I get to up-shift and down-shift everything with no clutch. Yes, it took some getting to used too. But, it is 3-4" longer than a TH400 and will require some fab work to fit under a Monte. This includes a combination of either locating the tranny mount support rail UNDER the frame or relocating the frame support square that resides in the middle of the frame rail. The Monte frame rail has a support welded right at the end of where a th400 will fit on the rail. I have heard of guys using gear vendor units on stout built th350 and th400 and they love the set up. Just something to think about. - Dave

Thanks guys for the info and opinions. Since money at the moment is pretty much done, and winter will be here soon. Im gonna roll with the bowtie until winter, then decide on which way to go. Looking around the net, I found a guy (art carr) that suppose to building these 200's to handle 1000hp. Not sure how accurate that is. I was actually getting used to the car without the overdrive and 3.73 gear. If worse comes to worse and I run into bad luck with breaking the 200. It may be aliitle cheaper to build up a TH400 or 350, and go back to not doin the Overdrive. Its a speculation right now, For the next few months, I'll cruise it around, and come time to put it away, I'll figure out the best move. This way since it will be winter, I wont be gunhoe wanting to drive the car. Right now, I'm pretty antsy to drive her.

Camshaft came today. I'm excited. Didn't receive the lifters yet. Maybe tomm. Once I get them, I'll get this thing degreed in. Then friday finish assembling the heads at the machine shop, check pushrod length, call Chris back and have him send the correct length, She's coming together. I think I also may have sold my air-gap, so I'll be looking to get the victor jr like chris straub advised me to.

I'm about ready to stand on the corner to pay for all this. (I might be able to buy a quart of oil by the days ends)

well hang in there, you're on the home stretch now...

After reading all this, I'm anxious to hear how the car drives when its done!

Davey advised me to spring for a cam when I was building my 502 and now I kinda wish I had - but the costs were spiraling out of control.

When I do, down the road, I'll be giving Chris a call too.

With that much lift, how much low end torque will be lost and what stall speed is needed?

Chris is telling me this thing will have excellent low end, very crispy throttle response, sound good, and will be a rocket. I told him I wanted to do atleast 115 to 118 mph. He tells me with this cam, I should do 120+ in the 1/4. Im excited to know what its going to do as well.

I feel you on the spiral outta control expenses. I acutally went about 1500.00 over the budget. I'll slowly get it back, but I feel long as the combo comes together and runs the way I want, it will be well spent.

Chris will actually build torque with duration timing events and LSA. With Mariano's big heads that's why the duration numbers are conservative. My motor with a slightly bigger version of that cam is going past 600 ft lbs by 3600....

Sounds great! Are you going to keep that 850 vac carb or is that temporary until the budget permits?

Any builder can make a claim that their tranny will hold 1,000HP(for one run) and that isn't false advertising. Art Carr from what I've heard is a reputable company, but seriously do your homework. Go to the track and see if anyone is running a 200R4 and if so how long has it held up and how many times did the owner have to have someone rebuild it. My gut tells me that more than likely at what will be your power level there will be no one drag racing with a 200R4. You might find a couple 700's, but at over 600HP they didn't last for more than a full season of continuous racing every weekend. Racers will give you the skinny on what holds up and what doesn't. Numbers on a website, or statements made during a phone call don't mean squat. Remember what Fram used to say "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later". In the end it's your money and you have to live with the results. If you are going to race I can tell you that vacumn secondary carb isn't going to cut it. I know you keep saying you are on a budget, but this isn't a race to get it race ready. When it's done it's done no matter how long it takes. As always JMHO.

To be very honest with everyone. I will probably go to the track only once to get an idea of what the car will do in the 1/4 mile. At the most twice. The track is over an hour away, and with my 2year old daughter, I see us doing all cruising around town, goin to car cruises, highway driving and such. However when she is not with me (rarely). I wont be able to resist some spirited driving on the straightaways, getting the highway, taking a friend for a ride. So all in all, I'm goin to be an honest 90% car cruise, highway driving, cruising around town, 8% spirited driving when I dont have my daughter, 2% making the drive up to the track.

I'm goin to give the 850 vac secondary carb a try, the way Chris talks this engine should be very responsive, unlike the last engine which was a little lazy down low. If I feel the carb is not up to par, I'll look into the carb you suggested to me in the previous post.

I actually feel like I kinda over did it on the engine, being its goin to be a street cruiser for the most part, but the drag racer in me (from previous years) wanted to know, that it will have something there waiting to be unleashed when I am able to step into it.

I was on a budget with the engine, but that has long passed, For now I'll get her together, she how she does, then over the winter make the decision for the upcoming year on my thoughts on the tranny situation. I think with the tranny being the weak part on the set-up and me not wanting to break it, it will keep me behaving & careful with everything. As always though Thank you for the opinions.

So run the 850 vacuum for a while - it will give you the opportunity to upgrade later. It's never really done, we all know the story. And I'm with ya regarding the track - I want to see what the car will do, but can't do it on a regular basis. That 200r4 might last longer than you think if you run regular tires on the street with this thing!

Thats the plan, bowtie did tell me it will live alot longer, if the car doesn't hook and spins, which it will do on the street anyway.