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Value of matching number vs non-matching numbers


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Hello everyone.  I have been away for awhile focusing on other things.  As some of you know I have several (4) 1970 SS454s and earlier this year acquired an extremely nice example of a 1970 Monte Carlo convertible.  Before I bought the convertible, I was quite sure I was happy and didn't need any more Monte Carlos.  However, as many of you can attest to this hobby is really more of a sickness and there is always (seemingly) good reason to buy just one more when something special comes up...and that is how I ended up with the convertible.  Well, now another gem (I think) has become available and I am trying to determine a fair value so I can determine whether I should buy it or not.  The car is a very solid 1970 Monte Carlo with factory 402 with the M20 4 speed transmission.  It is a bench seat car with no options except AM/FM mono radio, tilt wheel and the gauge package...no A/C or power options.  It is also a Flint built car so there is no build sheet to authenticate it.  That said, the owner is fairly confident that the engine and transmission are original and that the car was repaint once in the early 80's.  Trying to validate the motor I have not been able to see if the partial VIN is stamped on the pad behind the alternator (just can't see it well enough) or not but I can see the stamping has the characters "T0401CKR".  I have been able to determine that the "CKR" suffix does denote a 402 with a 4 speed trans from a 1970 Monte Carlo (or Chevelle).

So the questions are...

1) Is the "CKR" designation enough to prove the car is a factory 402 4 speed car and that this is likely (though not positively) the "born with" motor?

2) How much should the lack of proof certain of the numbers matching status of the car impact the value  

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Agree with Andy. You need to find the Vin on the block by the suffix. You also mentioned that the trans is numbers matching also. Check those numbers also. Check the 12 bolt, should be a 12 bolt for ratio and more importantly date code. 

As you know a 402 4 speed 70 Monte Carlo is "rarer" than your 4 SS's. 

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Hey, Steve, good to hear from you again!!  I thought maybe you fell off the end of the earth looking for that last '70 SS out there!!  Glad you finally found a 402 4-speed!  Once you start driving that, your SS collection may gather more dust! 😄

I'm sure you remember that the partial VIN for that black '70 SS you bought in Duluth was actually stamped down on the side of the block near the oil filter instead of up on the passenger side head pad where the date code was stamped.  I know it's not so easy to see the partial VIN when it is down on the side of the block, but that may be where it is.  May need to get it up on a lift to see it.  Good luck with the purchase!

 

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1979 to 1982 I had a 402 4 speed w/ bench seat Monte. I wish I never sold it. My current Monte is a 1970 350 4 speed. I do not have a build sheet. The numbers stamped on the pad are T1106CNJ. The partial vin is difficult to see due to some pitting on the pad I needed a magnifying glass and a light held at a certain angle and I could make out that the last 6 #s of partial vin do match the vehicle vin. With that info I am positive that mine is an original 4 spd. car, even though the trans #s don't match, since CNJ applications were manual transmission. A previous owner stated trans was replaced because the original one "blew up", which is quite vague. Anyway that's all I have to go with and I enjoy driving it.

John S

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Dang, Steve, that's a BEAUTY!!  Your SS cars will/should be jealous!  Looks like black vinyl over Fathom Blue and in great condition - well done!  My '70 402 4-speed was also a very low option car - even had manual steering!!  I've had a great deal of enjoyment upgrading the options on my car including Classic Auto Air, factory power windows and door locks, factory power steering, stereo radio with front and rear speakers, power seat back releases, full gauge dash, courtesy lighting, keyless entry, front and rear bumper guards, air lift, rear sway bar, wheels and tires, etc.  Not sure how "original" you want to keep yours, but I plan to own and drive mine for many years so I decided to make it the way I like it while retaining a virtually stock appearance.  Keep us posted on your plans and progress.   I know I am biased but I think you now have the best first gen configuration ever offered.  Enjoy!!  👍

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17 hours ago, MCfan said:

Dang, Steve, that's a BEAUTY!!  Your SS cars will/should be jealous!  Looks like black vinyl over Fathom Blue and in great condition - well done!  My '70 402 4-speed was also a very low option car - even had manual steering!!  I've had a great deal of enjoyment upgrading the options on my car including Classic Auto Air, factory power windows and door locks, factory power steering, stereo radio with front and rear speakers, power seat back releases, full gauge dash, courtesy lighting, keyless entry, front and rear bumper guards, air lift, rear sway bar, wheels and tires, etc.  Not sure how "original" you want to keep yours, but I plan to own and drive mine for many years so I decided to make it the way I like it while retaining a virtually stock appearance.  Keep us posted on your plans and progress.   I know I am biased but I think you now have the best first gen configuration ever offered.  Enjoy!!  👍

Yes Dennis my SSs should be jealous as this seems to be a very nice car.  It is Fathom blue with a black vinyl top and the interior is blue cloth.  As mentioned in a previous post, i was able to confirm (with pictures) that the motor and transmission are numbers matching.  According to the seller, the car had one repaint which included some minor ding fixes back in 1980.  The metal is all original and solid (no rust) but there is the beginnings of some bubbling at the rear window but it looks to be just surface.  I will know more when I get it here and can look it over and get it up on the lift but I am super happy to have found it.

I am not yet sure how original I will keep it...maybe just change out the bench for a set of buckets with the console and possibly add A/C.  Of course I will keep the original parts but I just can't see me enjoying the four speed with a bench seat haha.

My buddies all think I am crazy LOL because all I do is buy and never sell anything.  I now have 6 1970 Montes...4 - SS454s, 1 - Covertible, and this latest 1 a BBC 402 with 4 speed.  All the Monte's are original numbers matching (except of course the convertible which is just a super nice example of how the conversion should be done) and in near perfect condition.  In addition I recently bought a 1935 Chevy truck that although complete and solid (no rust California truck) is in pieces and needs painted and reassembled.  It is a good thing I don't have a wife, I would likely have been shot by now.

Here is a picture of some of my collection in front of my shop...

IMG_3373.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Jared Richey said:

Winfred Owens convertible you bought is probably one of the best built convertibles in the country

Thanks, Jared.  It is very nice, the paint is starting to show it's age and I am starting to think about getting it painted this fall/winter but I already have one in the shop being restored...it has been there nearly 2 years and is still a long way from finished.  The shop is run by a friend of mine and he just works on mine when he has a break between insurance work.  The car will be super nice when finished but it is really taking a looong time...  I might need to find another shop LOL.

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As far as your original question of how number matching vs non-number matching would affect value.  For the seller it is sometimes very important when trying to sell one that is rare, such as a 402 4-speed and SS's.  To a buyer, it depends upon what the buyer wants to do with the car, but I suspect you are award of that.  For a buyer who is looking for a numbers matching car it is important and they will pay for that but if the buyer is going to build a modified car then numbers matching is not always important.

For me, I would love to have a 70 or 71 402 4-speed.  To me, due to them being such a rare breed they would be more desirable than an SS every day of the week.  For those who prefer an SS would find it more desirable than a 402 4-speed.  I love them all and wish Chevrolet had never decided to build an SS without the option to order it in a 4-speed.  When I look at a Corvette, Chevelle SS, or any other real muscle car with an Auto transmission I can't help but think WHY.   WHY order a muscle car without getting it with a 4-speed.  BUT.... that is just me.

rob

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Steve, that car will be a bear to drive without power steering.  If you're just cruising or making normal traffic maneuvers - no problem - but wait until you try to parallel park it or do a three point turn-around - you'll wish you had a third arm (especially if you put fat tires on the front).  I bought a factory power steering pump, steering  box and hoses at a local salvage yard but it came off of a 350 car so I had to acquire the big block brackets from Leo.   I put a pump rebuild kit in for about twelve bucks. You'll eventually need the three groove crank pulley and two groove water pump pulley also if you add AC.

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/31/2019 at 12:01 PM, sredmyer said:

Yes Dennis my SSs should be jealous as this seems to be a very nice car.  It is Fathom blue with a black vinyl top and the interior is blue cloth.  As mentioned in a previous post, i was able to confirm (with pictures) that the motor and transmission are numbers matching.  According to the seller, the car had one repaint which included some minor ding fixes back in 1980.  The metal is all original and solid (no rust) but there is the beginnings of some bubbling at the rear window but it looks to be just surface.  I will know more when I get it here and can look it over and get it up on the lift but I am super happy to have found it.

I am not yet sure how original I will keep it...maybe just change out the bench for a set of buckets with the console and possibly add A/C.  Of course I will keep the original parts but I just can't see me enjoying the four speed with a bench seat haha.

My buddies all think I am crazy LOL because all I do is buy and never sell anything.  I now have 6 1970 Montes...4 - SS454s, 1 - Covertible, and this latest 1 a BBC 402 with 4 speed.  All the Monte's are original numbers matching (except of course the convertible which is just a super nice example of how the conversion should be done) and in near perfect condition.  In addition I recently bought a 1935 Chevy truck that although complete and solid (no rust California truck) is in pieces and needs painted and reassembled.  It is a good thing I don't have a wife, I would likely have been shot by now.

Here is a picture of some of my collection in front of my shop...

IMG_3373.jpg

I not long ago had the privilege of meeting Steve and 2 of his Beautiful SS Montes at his shop (traded some Cragars for Rallys) Man definitely knows The First Gens! Shop is defiinitly something I could only dream of! Gave me some good advice on my 71 and helped me source some needed parts. Thanks again Steve! Great member 

 

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