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Engine still running with key out


Crom Cruach

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1 hour ago, Crom Cruach said:

Key is ok Scott, but I’m wondering if the battery-to-solenoid cable is installed too tight and is touching the other points. See photo. I thought the slot was the right way around but maybe I need to rotate it 180°?

96067F84-D794-4449-8CCF-58668314D55C.thumb.jpeg.a895d63b772bfc95433e98a7854d3259.jpeg
 

comparing it to this angle from professor google where it’s angled back towards the starter:

E5421F41-7B97-4B79-B895-035D3BAB3E73.jpeg.ba088d36e631b1c4b5db71485829f34e.jpeg
 

A mechanic I am not. 

I would loosen and rotate the wire 180 degrees for sure and see if the fixes your problem.

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Regarding the spark at the battery.  Try disconnecting one end of all of the fuses and then see if you still get the spark.  If no, then start reconnecting each fuse until you see the spark.  That may tell you which circuit to start looking.  Even when you find one reinstalled fuse causing it, don't stop there.  Remove that one fuse and continue on until you have worked your way through each fuse.  Again, a good starting point.

Regarding the buzzing as soon as you install the key.  I am not sure of the 72 but on the 70 (if I am not mistaken) had a buzzer that buzzed if the key was in the ignition as a reminder to not leave the keys in the car.  Most of these buzzers went bad or it irritated the owner so much they removed it themselves.  

I have also seen some external voltage regulators create some of your gremlin symptoms.  When mine went bad I had a similar issue with those lights and it was the Voltage Regulator.  I changed it with a solid state voltage regulator.

rob

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29 minutes ago, Crom Cruach said:

Thanks everyone. I have a few leads to work on now. Just have to find the time. Some great tips and experience here 👍🏻 Priceless

Not priceless. 25 bucks and I’ll pay it all day long. 

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Good luck with the sleuthing. Dieseling and continuing to run are two different things, after reading these post not sure which is the problem anymore. Anyway electrical issue can cause you to pull your hair out. Regarding the electrical diagrams use a highlighter to highlight the circuit that you are working on. GM service school used to give out really neat wiring booklets that showed individual circuits in color. Unfortunately I worked at a Cadillac dealer so can only help with your Deville.

As the other rob said the key buzzer is supposed to annoy you anytime the key is all the way in the key switch. On a 70 it is part of the horn relay not sure on a 72 but if not there it is under the dash somewhere, just follow the noise. I've repaired/restored a few (don't ask me why but the judges like to see that stuff work). A factory clock doesn't really pull any power from the battery. It has an ingenious mechanism that rewinds the clock spring about every 45 seconds or so (the same judges listen for this by the way), can't take more than a few milliamps for a few milliseconds. The battery loses more charge across the terminals due to humidity than to the clock. Healthy sparks indicate something else wrong, I use an inductive DC ammeter to find latent amp draws. There are also short finders that can help find shorts.

Just because the door jam switches turn on and off the dome lights doesn't mean that something else isn't trying to use that circuit for a ground path. That's why I asked if the dash lights (didn't make the clear before) went off when you close the door.

 

rotin

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Yes, the better clearance for the wires, the better. 

The reason I ask about the key being tough to turn back is that the actual switch may be dirty and slow to disconnect when you turn the key off.

I had this issue with a '76 Chev Silverado years ago. The key tumbler was worn to the point that if I didn't pay attention to the position it was in when I pulled the key out, it would still make enough contact to drain the battery overnight. 

Just a thought....

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Dash lights solved - turned the positive cable 180 and no sparks from the negative terminal. I guess I wasn’t paying attention on disassembly. 

didn’t have time to take the car off the axle stands so I didn’t start the engine yet- will be interesting to see if the dieselling issue is gone too. Should have a few minutes tomorrow. 

Rotin - interesting detail about the clock! This stuff all will help diagnose future issues, I appreciate it. I associated the dieselling with the sparks because both happened for the first time after I installed the new starter. Felt they had to be connected, will find out tomorrow. The key buzzer shares a fuse with the clock, courtesy lights, cigar lighter, anti-diesel valve, glove box lamp, and light watch system, whatever that is. 

scott - the key action seems pretty smooth, sometimes a little reluctant to go in or remove but I think I’m getting used to it. My last 3 cars have been keyless! Great to get your insight.

Rob - that fuse tip is top notch. Is probably obvious to you guys but electrics are the dark arts to me.

honestly it’s like an apprenticeship here! 

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Paul, Electrical Issues are for sure from the "Dark Side" of the world.  You have to use a lot of Spock (aka logical) thinking to solve electrical gremlins.

How is that for mixing up two Sci-Fi movies/shows.

 

rob 

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1 minute ago, Rob Peters said:

Paul, Electrical Issues are for sure from the "Dark Side" of the world.  You have to use a lot of Spock (aka logical) thinking to solve electrical gremlins.

How is that for mixing up two Sci-Fi movies/shows.

 

rob 

Would gremlins be considered a third?

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Dang it she won’t start at all now. The starter sounds strong, it’s nearly hooking up, but sounds like it’s not getting fuel. Full tank. All fuses getting 12v, except the 4v which I believe is just instrument lamps & heater dial.

could the short have damaged something? Maybe a vacuum issue?

or could it be the starter needs a shim? I didn’t add one because I assumed it was a stock changeover. Also it obviously started first time after installation. 

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1 hour ago, Crom Cruach said:

Dang it she won’t start at all now. The starter sounds strong, it’s nearly hooking up, but sounds like it’s not getting fuel. Full tank. All fuses getting 12v, except the 4v which I believe is just instrument lamps & heater dial.

could the short have damaged something? Maybe a vacuum issue?

or could it be the starter needs a shim? I didn’t add one because I assumed it was a stock changeover. Also it obviously started first time after installation.        
 

 

vacuum issues won’t cause a no start or at least a no fire. Will cause it to run like crap though. No on the shim also that will be a different issue. If it’s cranking with no fire, two things fuel and spark. If original, fuel pump is mechanical no electric. Ez test put a tad of fuel down the carb and crank. If it fires, fuel pump issue. If not move on to electrical. 

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I am thinking it may be spark.  You did nothing to affect the fuel flow.  If you want a quick check on it being fuel.  Get someone to turn it over while some sprays some starting fluid into the carb.  Just don't overdo it on the starting fluid.  It is not meant to replace gas.  In other words, don't try to run it on spray starting fluid, you are only looking for it to fire.  If it does not fire with the starter fluid then it is spark related.

rob

PS, Have a fire extinguisher handy because if it is spark, you have been pumping a lot of gas into the carb area that a backfire through the carb could create quite an issue.... Capri could tell you a story on that one.

rob

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Fired her up today with just one pump of the pedal to open the carb and she started right up! Very lumpy idle, but that’s now a separate issue - I’ll search the forum for existing answers. 

Starter issue was my wiring. Dash lights & gremlins were due to the starter wiring. Star Wars cancels out Star Trek so all is good!

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4 hours ago, Crom Cruach said:

Fired her up today with just one pump of the pedal to open the carb and she started right up! Very lumpy idle, but that’s now a separate issue - I’ll search the forum for existing answers. 

Starter issue was my wiring. Dash lights & gremlins were due to the starter wiring. Star Wars cancels out Star Trek so all is good!

Now you just have to be wary of the Red Dwarf lurking under the hood..... ;)

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4 hours ago, Dtret said:

Excellent. They will run lumpy when cold. Check your vacuum hoses for a crack. What did you find wrong with the stater wiring?  

Dennis, the battery positive cable has a notch to align it on the solenoid, I couldn't see it on first install so the base of the cable must have been touching another wire. simple fix, phew

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Glad you got her running again. Just a point for safety, if you suspect that it isn't getting gas pull the air cleaner and cycle the throttle and look for the accelerator pump to squirt, a good solid stream and the carb has gas. A lot safer than squirting flammables around the engine. Not that I don't do it, I always prefill float bowls on new engine builds, carb rebuilds, and first start after winter hibernation. I just don't do it if it isn't necessary.

 

rotin

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