Jump to content

Help with road wandering


Recommended Posts

Any tips on curing a problem with wandering on the road while driving? It's especially noticeable at highway speeds. The car is also sensitive to cross winds on windy days. It's severe enough that it's a bit un-nerving at times.

  • Tires are new (245 60 15 Radial T/A's on 15x8 wheels)
  • Shocks are new (OE style hydraulic shocks)
  • Steering gearbox has been adjusted to the point of binding slightly and then backing off just a touch until the binding is gone
  • Rag joint seems okay
  • New inner/outer tie rods, center link, idler arm
  • Wheel bearings (front) adjusted properly with no looseness
  • Alignment in spec
  • No worn bushings in front or rear control arms and cannot get any play/slop when using a pry bar to check for play in suspension components
  • Everything in the suspension is stock except the tires and wheels

Help and thoughts appreciated! I hate to just throw parts at it if there is something common to look at that I'm not aware of. I've heard (not here) that these cars need special alignment specs to drive nicely. Has anyone heard about this or know anything about it?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a quick question.... How long has it been since you last drove an older car ? 

I have an '04 Monte as well, and the steering is night and day different, so it may just be what you're comparing it to.

That being said, the front springs could be soft, as well as the sway bar.... I've read that upgrading these can make a big difference. 

Have you had any issues with fender rub using that size of tire in the front ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Scott S. said:

Just a quick question.... How long has it been since you last drove an older car ? 

I have an '04 Monte as well, and the steering is night and day different, so it may just be what you're comparing it to.

That being said, the front springs could be soft, as well as the sway bar.... I've read that upgrading these can make a big difference. 

Have you had any issues with fender rub using that size of tire in the front ??

Hey @Scott S.. Thanks for the feedback. I know older cars are somewhat mushy but as I mentioned, this one is sketchy at hiway speed. I mean, you really have to stay on top of it and it feels unstable bordering on unsafe at times. That's not normal. 

That said, the car is a numbers matching car and I want to keep OE style parts on it so upgrading the springs and sway bar to something that isn't OE isn't an option.

The front tires do rub on the top-center inner fender bolt head lightly only if there are two people in the car (on turns). The wheels are 4 inch backspace. I've ordered 4.25 inch backspace to replace all of them and stop that rubbing. The rears have very little clearance from the tire to the lip of the quarter but they do not rub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ft end alignment specs changed when all cars came with power steering.

Here is an article. I had mine changed and saw some improvement.

I also added the Poly bushings but after several years they started to squeak like crazy so now I will replace them with old school rubber.

 

 

Alignment1.jpg

Alignment2.jpg

Alignment3.jpg

Alignment4.jpg

Alignment5.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try this, put 2 thinner tires on the front and road test. See what happens. 

Also could be the steering box. You mentioned you adjusted/had it adjusted. Could still be binding a little without you feeling it. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I haven't experienced what you are having issues with, I had a 76 GMC Short Wide Half Ton when putting meatier tires on, it steered differently.  Discovered driver side Frame flexed when turning causing poor steering response.  Remedy was applying a stiffener kit to front end driver side Frame (2 metal pieces, each welded each inside/outside of frame).  Made it more responsive to my commands but never was perfect.

Just a thought................

Doug

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, stangeba said:

Ft end alignment specs changed when all cars came with power steering.

Here is an article. I had mine changed and saw some improvement.

I also added the Poly bushings but after several years they started to squeak like crazy so now I will replace them with old school rubber.

 

 

Alignment1.jpg

Alignment2.jpg

Alignment3.jpg

Alignment4.jpg

Alignment5.jpg

@stangeba This is exactly what I was talking about. Because I know the affects of caster on steering stability, I was thinking about adding some positive caster to my alignment. I wasn't sure how much but this article spells it out. Awesome! Thanks for sharing, Bruce!! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess my question would be, does it "wander" by itself when you are not moving the steering wheel while driving?  If so, that would imply to me something other then the steering box and column.  If you have to continuously move the steering wheel back and forth to keep the car straight while driving, then that would imply to me that the issue is play in the steering box.

After seeing the list of everything that you already replaced, I suspect your issue is with the steering box.  It is easy to find a used steering box to swap out if you want to keep it original looking.  I believe the 72 years had a quicker turning ratio.  However, if you want it to be tight and really responsive (like newer cars) then maybe you should consider replacing the factory steering box with a Borgeson unit.  Money well spent if you plan to keep the car for a while and drive it worry free.  I put one in my 72 Corvette and it steers like it is on rails.

Good luck!
Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike Brichta said:

I guess my question would be, does it "wander" by itself when you are not moving the steering wheel while driving?  If so, that would imply to me something other then the steering box and column.  If you have to continuously move the steering wheel back and forth to keep the car straight while driving, then that would imply to me that the issue is play in the steering box.

After seeing the list of everything that you already replaced, I suspect your issue is with the steering box.  It is easy to find a used steering box to swap out if you want to keep it original looking.  I believe the 72 years had a quicker turning ratio.  However, if you want it to be tight and really responsive (like newer cars) then maybe you should consider replacing the factory steering box with a Borgeson unit.  Money well spent if you plan to keep the car for a while and drive it worry free.  I put one in my 72 Corvette and it steers like it is on rails.

Good luck!
Mike

@Mike BrichtaThis is great info, Mike. Thanks. I've resisted using a different gearbox because the car is all original and I want to keep it that way but I looked at the Borgeson unit and it's very close to stock-looking. And I like the 12:1 ratio. Very tempting.

I'm going to have an alignment with added positive caster and see how that works. If it doesn't do what I want, I'll seriously consider the Borgeson unit.

I'll update here once I have the alignment done. Thanks again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your alignment guy can get the settings from a mid-70's Pontiac for something specific to power steering and radial tires. Otherwise:

Caster should be as high as possible in the positive direction. You'll probably end up somewhere around +1-3* without a stack of shims on the rear bolt.

Toe should be 1/16" to 1/8" in.

Camber should be .5* negative.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, TheBMan said:

Hey @Scott S.. Thanks for the feedback. I know older cars are somewhat mushy but as I mentioned, this one is sketchy at hiway speed. I mean, you really have to stay on top of it and it feels unstable bordering on unsafe at times. That's not normal. 

That said, the car is a numbers matching car and I want to keep OE style parts on it so upgrading the springs and sway bar to something that isn't OE isn't an option.

The front tires do rub on the top-center inner fender bolt head lightly only if there are two people in the car (on turns). The wheels are 4 inch backspace. I've ordered 4.25 inch backspace to replace all of them and stop that rubbing. The rears have very little clearance from the tire to the lip of the quarter but they do not rub.

Highway speed being 70 mph+ ? 

That's where aerodynamics comes into play...... 

If your car sits level or a little "front high" (large tires may do that), the winds at that speed will tend to lift the front and lower tire contact with the road. 

Suspension adjustments should correct that, and even tire sizing will play a part. I went with adding a front spoiler, and I've seen some improvement with that as well. 

P.S., There are tons of OEM options available to accomplish what you're trying to do. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Your alignment guy can get the settings from a mid-70's Pontiac for something specific to power steering and radial tires. Otherwise:

Caster should be as high as possible in the positive direction. You'll probably end up somewhere around +1-3* without a stack of shims on the rear bolt.

Toe should be 1/16" to 1/8" in.

Camber should be .5* negative.

Love this response. Thanks Cody!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Those are factory specs, they're almost the opposite of what you want for new tires.

@Blackhawk It's going in tomorrow to have positive caster added. In fact, I agree with you on the specs you suggested and already gave them to the alignment guy. Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had the alignment done yesterday. The guy was able to get about +2.5° caster before running out of shims. It made a very noticeable difference; the car drives straight with very little correction and no longer feels sketchy at highway speed with no noticeable difference in steering feel or response. We ordered more shims and I'm going back soon to have more caster dialed in. There are also offset control arm bushing shafts that are available for this very problem but I don't think I want to go to that much trouble. I'm going to get as much positive caster as I can with shims and call it a day.

Thanks to everyone who had input on the topic. I'll update again after I get more caster dialed in.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

UPDATE: I replaced the upper and lower control arms, ball joints, bushings and had another alignment done. This time the caster was set to +5.5°. It's like driving a different car; so much better than it was before.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. Hopefully others will find this information useful!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad to see you have your car driving the way you want, What did you replace your control arms with? Stock or tubular?  I went with chassis works AFX stock height spindles and BMR tall spindle arms. The car sits about 3/4 inch lower with stock size and rate Eaton springs and BMR big sway bar. Also you should consider the Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box. Gives the stock look and will get rid of the mushy feeling around center of the stock variable ratio box better feel too.

 

rotin

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, rotinrob said:

Glad to see you have your car driving the way you want, What did you replace your control arms with? Stock or tubular?  I went with chassis works AFX stock height spindles and BMR tall spindle arms. The car sits about 3/4 inch lower with stock size and rate Eaton springs and BMR big sway bar. Also you should consider the Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box. Gives the stock look and will get rid of the mushy feeling around center of the stock variable ratio box better feel too.

 

rotin

@rotinrob I went with stock parts. The car is a numbers matching original and I want to keep it that way. I'm sure your setup drives and handles far better than a stock setup, even though it's all new.

What makes the Jeep gearbox work better than the GM gearbox? It looks the same but has different internals?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, rotinrob said:

Glad to see you have your car driving the way you want, What did you replace your control arms with? Stock or tubular?  I went with chassis works AFX stock height spindles and BMR tall spindle arms. The car sits about 3/4 inch lower with stock size and rate Eaton springs and BMR big sway bar. Also you should consider the Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box. Gives the stock look and will get rid of the mushy feeling around center of the stock variable ratio box better feel too.

 

rotin

Very nice,   I would expect that your car handles quite well with that setup.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheBMan said:

@rotinrob I went with stock parts. The car is a numbers matching original and I want to keep it that way. I'm sure your setup drives and handles far better than a stock setup, even though it's all new.

What makes the Jeep gearbox work better than the GM gearbox? It looks the same but has different internals?

I'd go with a Red Head Steering Gears box. They are a bit stiffer feeling, like a modern car and have a quicker ratio.

https://redheadsteeringgears.com/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes my car is night and day to what it was stock, time to work on the rear but I still want to keep the air ride that was stock. Not sure how that will work. nothing terrible about the stock parts (usually lighter than tubulars) that can't be changed in a number of ways. I needed new spindles and A arms anyway so I went the way I did. You can accomplish the same geometry gains by using tall ball joints but it is a compromise with the stock upper arms. Also  bump steer isn't the greatest with the stock spindles, not that big of a deal though.

What's nice about the JGC box is it is stiffer than the stock box (heavier "T" bar and not a variable ratio) and about $35 in a salvage yard. Need a different rag joint and need to convert the hoses to the metric fittings in the box, no problem the stuff is readily available. If you really want to remain "stock" the guts will fit inside the original casting. Don't use a TA box as the internal stops are different, you won't be able to navigate a parking lot (but you can change the stops). There is a lot of interchangeability (inside and out) in the Saginaw box that the aftermarket takes advantage of at the expense of your wallet (worth it if you don't want to or can't do the work). Plus the general hasn't made these things in years so it is nice that the aftermarket is filling a void. Be wary of part store rebuilds as you can't be sure of what "tune" is inside.

 

rotin

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...