gprimm

A point of clarication on the 1970 390hp 454, vs. the 360hp 454. They were the same engine, LS-5. The big blocks were built at the Tonawanda, NY engine plant but the Vettes had to have more advertised horsepower so they were labeled 390. It even got to a point where the Vette owners were saying their engines were assembled separately from our "regular" engines, but they weren't. The Chevelles had the L-79, 327, it was rated at 350hp in '66 and then 325hp in '67; same engine. Also, in 1970 they sold SS396 Chevelles but they were 402 cubic inches, but Chevrolet knew the 396 held a better ring to it so they were labeled 396. The Monte came with the LS-5, rated at 360hp in '70 and 365hp in '71. If you found a buildsheet it would say LS-5.

No it was not.

Rob. It was twilight at the time and I did not check under the car, but the window sticker was there. I'd like to see the build sheet, if there is one. I am sure I'll see the car around more in the area. It did have the air leveling tank. I want to talk to the owner and look at the car more closely. It was just odd seeing it; I don't know of a SS owner who has even "mocked" one up. You know, like the "SS" cars with the "SS" grille emblem and things like that. The window sticker looked original.

While at the NASCAR Joliet Fanfest Car Show on July 7 (Thursday) I was showing my two Montes and the Z28 and I noticed a dark green 1971 Monte SS. I noticed the cruise control system on the car as I walked by. There was also the original type small window sticker that showed the cruise control on the sticker. Now I have always heard that you could not get cruise on the car, and I have never before seen cruise on a 1st Gen SS. Yet, it the window sticker shows it was there. I know they did weird things at the factory. Another mystery / learning experience.

Truth be told, check out a same year Caprice, Impala big block. I found a 1971 Impala big block in a junkyard and the mouth at the end of the air cleaner inlet (snout) was the same as the Monte big block.

I noticed the posting on the Chevy historic information. I forwarded that to a fellow Northern Illinois Chevelle Club Member, Terry McManmon, editor of the NCRS magazine. This was his reply: "I can't speak to the information about Jim Mattison, but I have known Art Armstrong for around 20 years, and that part is true. In fact, Art wrote a story for my Corvette Club Magazine that was essentially the same information he posted on the NCRS discussion board. The contents of that story is also posted on a web site someplace. Do a Google search on Art Armstrong and you will find it. When Art was looking for that data, part of the goal was to find the build information for a Camaro Jim Perkins was having restored. That was the hook that got Jim to authorize the search. Hope always springs eternal, and it is almost impossible to prove a negative, but I am pretty sure the holy grail of Chevrolet build or shipping information just doesn't exist any longer." Terry McManmon, Editor The Corvette Restorer Going back to Fran Preve of the Tonawanda Engine plant, he did know what engines were produced for what cars. Sure wish we had the ability to confirm like Canada. Oh well, we still love our Chevys!!!

Great stuff. If you were talking about the owner of the "LS6" Monte, I don't know why he wouldn't respond. He was nice enough to send me a copy; if there is one, I'd like to know, but I don't think there ever was one officially. There were definite problems with his. Maybe he bought it thinking it was one and now doesn't know what to do. On the GM records I don't know specifics. I do know they have the ability to do so. If they would just give access to someone to do the work, like the fella for Pontiac, I think that would go along way to help Chevy owners. Someone would make money doing it and the controversy would end on the car details. Oh yes, while no Montes were built with the LS6, Chevrolet records show that there were 6 LS6 engines designated for the A-body. Therein lies the mystery and the need to see and authenticate any buildsheet. I love Montes, Chevelles and Chevrolet. The owners are great. What I keep in mind is we are doing this because we are passionate about our Chevrolets; I love your passion!!! Let's hope we're still at it in the years to come, eh? I cannot wait for the Decatur, IL. Monte Carlo convetion and see some Montes. I hope there is a good turnout of 1st Gens.

Leo, I get the sense that you took offense to something I said. No offense was meant. There are ways to verify the Monte SS, but if the frame is cracked and rusted beyond repair, there's not much choice. Glad you've saved so many. Keep it up!!! Interestingly, Corvettes used broadcast sheets for production but they were almost never put into the cars. They know from original cars documented from original owners and window stickers that it is real and use those as the benchmark. Those L-88 values haven't been held down by the lack of buildsheets. To me, the buildsheet is the ultimate; if it is an original unrestored car and the original owner has no clue on where the buildsheet is, I won't look for it. Oh well, let's hope Chevrolet does publish those production figures. Did run across an original owner, 15K mile 1971 Monte SS in Chicago from original owner's sister. Triple black; the sales invoice, dealer papers, finance papers, etc all there. That gave the VIN and the VIN was on the car. Not for sale as the original owner just died and the 74 year old sister wasn't ready to sell yet !!

Build sheets have been important for over 20 years, particularly to those looking to document an unusual car. Since at least 1986 they were important to Chevelle owners and continued with the first "bubble" in car values in the late 80's / early 90's. Chevrolet made it harder for us after 1968, when the Super Sport option was made an option, not a separate model # as stamped on the data plate on the firewall. There are no arguments for cars prior to that. They even marked what engine was in it. Oh well. There are other ways to verify a LS-5 Monte SS, a buildsheet is only the ultimate, but with computers that is no longer safe. Could that be why GM is going to make the records available, which I beleive they have always had the ability to do. I would never scrap a rebuildable Monte particularly potential LS-5's because of a lack of buildsheet. From the beginning of time the phrase "buyer beware" has been around for a reason. A knowledgable buyer, or access to someone who knows, is in a position to help preserve our cars. I believe the Montes are going to go up in value over the next few years. The importance of a buildsheet comes into play, for me, in two instances; 1). when an exhorbatant price is being asked, or 2). a car that has never been seen, or verified by the factory as being produced, is presented as legit. That is where it comes into play for me.

NICC member Rick Pauley saw a buildsheet for an LS-6 convertible and it looked great, but they don't know all the special codes for the boxes and what numbers/codes these special cars have for each box. Rick relayed that he started questioning the owner about the code problems and the guy fessed-up. Used a scanner and using photo editing software individual letters can be "boxed" or highlighted and copied and pasted to other places. That is what this fella said he did with the LS-6 convertible that he cloned. Rick visits the FGMCC message forum and may add some comments, but with computers and the software available it isn't that hard. That may be why Chevrolet may finally make public what Pontiac Historical Services has done for hears and Chevrolet in Canada does now; authenticating cars via the VIN. I think that is good; the market will lower the price of the clones and the value of the true cars will increase. I don't believe there was an LS-6 Monte Carlo made.

Just wanted to update. The owner was nice enough to send a copy of the Buildsheet to me. I compared it to my 1971 LS-5 Buildsheet and there were some irregularities, such as pulleys, which on the LS-6 should be deep groove. An LS-6 expert who is a member of the Northern Illinois Chevelle Club, Rick Pauley, examined the buildsheet and compared them to LS-5 and other LS-6 verified car / buildsheets. On Saturday, April 16th we met and talked and discussed the problems and there was doubt. Separately today I received an email from the owner, who upon his further investigation, has concluded that the car is not a legit LS-6. It was very honest of him and we had not discussed the issues we had found. If there is an LS-6 Monte out there, I hope it comes out. Spoke with the editor of the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) who is also in the NICC and he said there were 200 1971 Vettes. There were no LS-6 1971 Chevelles. So the search continues for the mythical 1971 Monte Carlo LS-6. Have to give a hand to the owner to say that his research doesn't support the "buildsheet".

While visiting with Kevin Wiles I was able to see the buildsheet that was emailed to Kevin. While I didn't ask for a copy, please see if the owner will email me one. I did note where the car was sold, although the first letters of each line were cut off. Turns out that the buildsheet car was sold in a very small town in IL., which just happens to be where my family is from and most of them go to be buried. I contacted some of the older Primm clan and they confirmed the name of the dealership and even gave me a name of a person to talk to. If this is a legit car, I'd like to help document it. Please see if the owner will send me a copy. I just want to confirm. With the VIN and production date (which I remember from the buildsheet) I can contact a few insiders at Chevrolet to see if they can help us get some information to confirm. I can also search using the VIN and see the ownership chain. We can start making calls to former owners. Let's go !!

Show me the buildsheet. My email is georgeprimm@cs.com That would be good, but have to see the original too. Nuff said. Looking forward the Decatur Convention.

Show me the buildsheet. Has anayone seen a buildsheetor is it just "I have a buildsheet"? Unless the buildsheet is seen, authenticated and the car is verified it's just talk and conjecture. Would I like to see an LS-6 Monte? Absolutely. People I know have been talking about this since 1984 and not a single example has been brought out. If I had a legit LS-6 monte with paperwork, you better believe it'd be seen. on the otherhand, since the Monte and Chevelle were made at the same plant, using a Chevelle as an example, an LS-6 Monte could be "cloned" easily, but only an LS-6 expert would know all the details, so authenticating it wouldn't be that hard. I've got all the parts numbers for LS-6's (carbs, dist, alt., etc.) I don't believe it until the buildsheet is made public. Kevin, I'll meet you in SC in a few weeks when I get the trim parts. Looking forward to my trip south. I found lots of parts for Montes in the junkyards along 123 in Easley for years. Love the South.

When I was told about the car I asked to see the buildsheet and when they asked why I said the buildsheet will give me the build date, sequence number, ordering dealer, Chevrolet Zone, etc. The buyer was a friend of a Northern Illinois Chevelle Club member so when they told the seller the "buildsheet" was going to be shown to someone who knows, the sale was voided. That was about 7 years ago and I believe the car has quietly been "de-SSified". Several knowledgable Chevelle people saw the car in the showroom and after crawling under and around it, did not believe it was a factory installed 4-speed or LS-6. At that time, no "buildsheet" was offered or shown to any of the interested parties. Someone who doesn't know would look at something and assume it is a buildsheet, but those who have been around the cars know. I believe that is why when it was mentioned someone who know something about this was going to see it, things suddenly stopped. Andreas, my family and I will be in Pigeon Forge in 2 weeks, from Monday, March 28th through Thursday. How far are you from there?

Andy, Car Craft and magazines only know what they are told by "those in the know". For Chevelle and Z-16 information they often go to Mark Meekins in N.C. Dollar-to-donuts they do not know about the 300 Deluxe. Only after a collector offers the brother of the deceased GM exec enough money will they become aware / print it. Mpntes just aren't as popular and there hasn't been a large amount of info. in magazines. There are 50 articles on Chevelles for every one on the Monte Carlo. Until 10 years ago they didn't know a "pre-production" Z-16 was built, even Mark Meekins was offered it and he rejected it because it didn't seem right. Floyd Garrett of Garrett MuscleCar Museum in Seivervile, TN. bought it and had it restored. Suddenly, every magazine was featuring it and Mark was kicking himself. Sorry to say, the Monte's for some reason don't appreciate in value as much as the Chevelles. It is odd; the same frame, engine, options (exc. LS-6) and built in the same plant, yet you can get a Monte SS454 for 1/2 the price of a Chevelle SS454 of the same year. I guess that is good because we'll always be able to afford them. If there was an LS-6 Monte, it would have been found. Regarding the 4-speeds, there are 350 and 402's out there from the factory with 4-speed. I have seen a 1971 Monte with a powerglide trans and one with a manual 3-speed. Could it have been made? I don't believe so. Fran Preve knew of these "one-off" production vehicles and they were later found & confirmed. No official confirmation from Chevy. I believe Fran would have told me about an LS-6 Monte if Chevrolet production records had shown one being built. On the contrary, he was very emphatic that one was NOT built. In all the other instances he just got a glint in his eye and smiled. For years an LS-6 4-speed Monte was bouncing around Northern IL. It was for sale at a large car muscle car broker in Northern Illinois. It was eventually purchased by a friend of a member of the Northern Illinois Chevelle Club and they excitedly told me about it. There was a "build-sheet". I was actually excited about the possibility of finally seeing this "holy grail" of first generation Monte owners. Guess what, it wasn't real. He got his money back.

In 1986 at the National Chevelle Owners Association Convention in Peoria, IL. a speaker from the Tonawanda, NY GM engine plant made a presentation on production facts. His name is Fran Preve and Chevrolet gave him access to all of their records of production because he was a "gear head" Chevy racer. He was the "informal" source/pipeline for Chevrolet production facts to clubs and individuals. For a short while he penned a column for a Chevy magazine but then got cancer and had to stop. I asked him about the 1970-71 LS-6 Monte Carlo and he said "no". I doubted it and got somewhat upset because Monte's and Chevelle's were made in the same plant. He had the production records and said "no". I believe him. Over the years we became closer acquaintenaces and my confidence grew in his facts. He said Chevy has the records to confirm the legitimacy of a car but didn't want to make it available like Pontiac Historical because of the huge volume. In a recent magazine it was mentioned than Chevy was thinking about offering this service. I have believed they can do it because if you have a Canadian built Chevelle you can supply them the VIN and in return get the production information,, build sheet and a confirmation letter. If Canada can do it, so can US. As a side note, Fran told me of several one-off cars built that got out. We have found two. A Z-16 300 Deluxe and a '72 El Monte (El Camino with a Monte front end). I have pictures of both. The "El Monte" I also have on video tape. In a recent National Monte Carlo Owners newsletter there was a question if a "Monte El Camino" was built and the response was no; but it was in Baltimore and was found in Virginia. Fran Preve knew one had been built and called the GM employee he knew who helped build it, and legitimacy was confirmed at the National Chevelle Owners Assoc. Convention in Nashville in 1992. In fact, it was for sale for $6,500, and when it was confirmed, the owner ran through the security at the Convention to take the for sale sign out. It hasn't been seen since. As he was running to the car, I was yelling "I'll give you asking price". No deal. Fran didn't advertise the weird cars built by Chevy because they might be faked. It is neat to know this weird stuff and put the puzzles together and find them. The 300 Deluxe Z-16 was found by Mark Meekins, founder of the National Chevelle Owners Assoc, (and the nation's #1 Z-16 expert)in TN. in 2001. Fran first told us about it at the NCOA Convention in Columbus, OH. when a mechanic from the Detroit area told him about a weird '65 Chevelle he had worked on with a big block and hydraulic lifters (a Z-16 distinctive, the only high horsepower big block with hydraulic lifters); Fran told him to go find that car. It has since has been found by several collectors who are now after it in the worst way. The value of this car I cannot even estimate. It was a GM exec car. It is my theory that the magical "convertible" of the 201 Z-16's that has never been found is actually this 300 Deluxe. If you want to know more, let me know. I might start putting this stuff on the www.chevelle-club.com website under "tech" or I'll make up a new section titled "Interesting Facts". if they are finding these cars, I may as well get what I know out there so history cannot be changed. Because of these circumstances of Fran's telling me of these odd cars and them coming through, I believe his comment that there were no LS-6 Montes made. There were Chevelles and Vettes in '71 with LS-6s. I love this stuff. If you'd like to know what he said to the Corvette guys that made them mad, let me know and I'll post it.

If you need a close up picture, I'll take one of mine and email to you. Not a problem. Actually if you go to www.chevelle-club.com / car photos, there is a shot of my 71 SS with a rear shot and the bumper pad. If you need closer, let me know.