kc8oye Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 it's the _FAN_ that is causing the problems.. the clutch is a seperate issue. use a thermal clutch if you can spare the extra $$$ if you go that route.. then as the air warms up (heated by the rad) the clutch will slip 'less' and make the fan draw more air thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 Okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc8oye Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 finally.. he sees the light.... lol j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillPatri Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 There is no such thing as "coolant flow too fast" A great high-flow thermostat: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EMP%2D301&autoview=sku and a great high-flow water pump: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EMP-23113 You may need a good aluminum radiator with a high CFM electric fan/shroud. BBP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 Looked em up, they look good. Did you hear they were very good or do you have them on your car or a friend's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillPatri Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I have studied many over-heating threads on the 4 sites that I visit. I have these items on order for my 500HP 355, but not installed yet. Read over the stuff on www.stewartcomponents.com technical. BBP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 That's awesome, thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc8oye Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 yes, there is coolant flow too fast.. take your thermostat out, and watch the car overheat, because the coolant is flowing through the radiator so fast, it can't get rid of the heat. same applies for pumping it thru the block... if it doesn't have time to absorb the heat, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. his overheating problem exists only at idle, which leads to the logical conclusion, his flex fan is a POS (which they are) if it runs a steady 190 on the move.. I'd say check that t-stat very closely and make sure you didn't get a 190. i had a parts guy hand me a 190 even after I told him to make sure it was a 160.. gotta be careful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 I am my own parts guy-worked for Advance Auto Parts for 5 years now! lol I think I'll try the fan first since it's free since I believe I still have one floating around somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillPatri Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 KC8OYE, you are correct that in some situations, taking the thermostat out will cause over-heating, but not because the flow is too fast. It's due to water pump cavitation. The following is copied: "Water pump cavitation is a huggeeee factor in taking thermostats out. That whole "flows too fast" theory is a bunch of bull. For crying out loud, the fluid has to flow through tubes that are only 1 inch in width by something along the lines of a 1/16" deep. It seems that flowing capabilities would need to be of the highest capacity to have the fluid flow through those small tubes. I don't care how high of a flowing capability waterpumps are, if you have to flow fluid through such narrow passages, your pump abilities are going to be hindered. A simple comparison is a garden hose. Leave the end fully open, a nice steady stream of water is coming out, now start to pinch it off. You can clearly see how you will flow no where near as much water as before hand, AND also take into consideration that the narrow passage will INCREASE backpressure in the hose and will actually move the water further then previously beforehand, which also brings me to the thermostat. The ultimate purpose is to keep the engine's operating temperature fairly consistent so everything can operate correctly, especially now with the arseload of sensors that rely on the engine performing at the correct operating temperature. Also whenever people remove the thermostat to increase flowing, or so they think, the backpressure created by the thermostat will be absent, which will also hinder the water pump from doing its job. Without the proper backpressure to let the impeller blades actually move the water somewhere, it will just spin the water around the blades and not actually move any, creating local hot spots and cavitate the water pump. I believe that by actually removing the thermostat, you are ultimately signing your death wish by not flowing water fast enough . Also take into consideration, why do you think there are a number of people that have problems of having the car never warm up when they remove the thermostat? Shouldn't they have the overheating problem that we've been led to believe is the cause from having water flow to fast? Their cooling system is up to the task and will actually overcool if that device is removed, and in some cases, overheat due to the waterpump cavitating. That is my belief. ""What some people will say in public. This is absolutely false, of course. Try to conceive of blowing on something hot, say a spoonful of soup, first slowly and then more rapidly. Which cools faster? For extra credit, try imagining the same spoon with first slow and then fast water moving across the bottom. Sheesh! The issue with running without a thermostat is two-fold. The first part is that the thermostat provides drag on the water flow. This drag increases the backpressure the water pump and all of the enginesees. This additional pressure, over and above the nominal 15 psistatic pressure the radiator cap sets, raises the boiling point of the coolant. The reason this is important is that it suppresses localized film boiling at hot spots such as around the exhaust port. The transition from nucleatic boiling (bubbles of steam originating from irregularities on the surface) to film boiling (where the hot surface is coated with a film of steam) is called Departure from Nucleatic Boiling or DNB. DNB is very bad, for steam is a very good insulator compared to water. Once DNB occurs, the area under the steam gets hotter because the steam doesn't remove very much heat, adjacent metal which is still wetted heats from conduction. DNB happens there. The process spreads until substantially all the coolant-wetted surfaces are insulated by a film of steam. The engine overheats. In addition, the buildup in steam pressure forces the radiator cap open, bleeding coolant, therefore making the situation worse. The second issue is that of water pump cavitation and surge. If the pump is operated at high RPM with insufficient head pressure(provided by the frictional losses in the coolant passages and the thermostat), there is a great likelihood that the pump will either cavitate (localized boiling and/or degassing on the impeller) or surge (an unstable flow regime). Either phenomena is destructive. Cavitation's collapsing bubbles act like little sand blaster, eroding away impeller material. Surge can do the same thing and in addition, can vibration stress the impeller enough to break it. Many times what looks like corrosion damage to the impeller, especially when the housing is damage-free, is actually cavitation damage. The myth of velocity originated among those unschooled in physics or thermodynamics, I suppose, because a common racer "solution" is to press a fixed restriction into the thermostat housing neck when no thermostat is desired. The conventional (but wrong) wisdom is that the restriction "slows the water" as stated by the previous poster. In reality, all it does is provide some more dynamic pressure in the block by restricting the flow. The exact same result could be accomplished (assuming the water pump doesn't surge or cavitate) with a higher static pressure (cap pressure), assuming the system could withstand it."" Bogie" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heckeng Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Wow, fantastic write-up Bill! I have debated both theories in my head as far as running less flow, versus high flow. It's a really interesting subject in my opinion too! I agree with much of your logic, but would debate the benefit of lots of flow. There will be a point where you do not gain any cooling benefits due to increased flow because your other cooling system components will become the "weakest link". If you increase flow through the radiator, eventually, the heat transfer from the coolant to the air will hit it's limit given the limitations of the ability of the radiator to conduct the heat, or the air to draw heat off of the fins of the exchanger. I would say that as long as you match your entire system, the more flow the better, but many situations with increased flow will simply be adding work (heat) into the cooled fluid with no benefit. Once a cooling system has hit it's maximum heat transfer, likely limited by the radiator, or by the air velocity you will see an increase in the coolant temp on the outlet side of the radiator which will in turn not be able to cool the engine as much because the temperature difference between the radiator water and the engine side water is diminishing. The extra effort by the engine to turn the pump to move the water at such high velocities will add heat to the system unnecessarily. Whether or not this added heat is significant or not I can't say. So I guess I'm saying that each cooling system does have a flow rate that should not be exceeded, but that flow rate will depend on the quality and efficiency of each part of the cooling system. In ChevroletR's case, I think his air flow velocity is very minimal, so if he increased his coolant flow, it would be a waste of energy because the heat transfer is limited by his fan efficiency. If he upgraded his fan, then more flow could be beneficial. Just my $0.02. Great discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 I guess to Scott and Tim then, would a clutch fan help my overheating/running really hot at idle issues? I would think, from your descriptions, that the clutch fan would benefit me at highway/moving speeds. But I guess you're also saying that the flex fan doesn't move as much air at idle either as the original fan-syle was, correct? Sorry I keep popping up with questions, it's just that I'm 650 miles away from my Monte until I get a week in May to get back home so I just can't walk out in the garage and stick the clutch fan back on her just quite yet! Thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heckeng Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I would say that a stock clutch fan would probably not help much at all. I'd switch to an electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Yeah I know that's what everybody is telling me. I don't have the cha-ching right now though, and like I said before I want to make sure my cooling system is the most efficient as it can get right now that way I won't worry about it so much and when I eventually DO get electric fans, they won't have to work as hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc8oye Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 the key here ryan, is the FAN itself.. that flex fan just plain sucks at moving air.. I went down that road myself, that's how I know! even if you don't use a clutch, and just get that stock fan on there, you should see a huge difference. as for the $$$ if you sniff around a junkyard, you should be able to come up with an electric fan for next to nothing. OR... you could buy a medium size fan for now, about $60-$80 from your local parts store.. and that would be enough until you get into the summer temps, then add a second one.. just a thought. you dont' need a $1,000 BeCool fan setup.. a pair of $60 hayden fans from Advance Autoparts will do the same job you could even skip the cost of the controller FOR NOW.. and just wire the fan to a switch, or a relay on an ignition switched circuit.. just some ideas to cut down on the wallet shock.. I've spent the last 4 years finding no/lo cost solutions to problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 True true, I know what you mean by budget builds! When I finish the car down the road, I want to be able to drive the piss out of her and be able to drive it to work a few times a week with no problem cause I absolutely LOVE driving my Monte and I believe that's what they're made for-to be driven so I think if I'm gonna spend the money, I want a nice fan setup that I can rely on and last for a long time. I agree about using O.E. fans because they seem to always be reliable. For around $60, I guess it wouldn't be bad to last a few years now that the car is rarely driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heckeng Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I agree, junkyard could be perfect! You can get LS1 fans cheap, and they are a dual fan, and shrouded, and would be awesome. Somebody else just posted a pic of the LS1 fan they picked up and put on their monte. If you get a big fan, you will need to use a relay to keep things safe from fire hazzards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevroletR Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Yeah, I could get a $5 relay (or less, depending) and wire her up. I love hunting in junkyards, I'll keep my eyes peeled! I just had to put a fan setup on my moms 01 Monte Carlo (due to a slight slideoffjack misshap [oops]) and they are a dual setup, but you can't really separate them unless you cut the shrouds in half. A lot of plastic too. I think they're a little too small, maybe not in CFM, but would look a little goofy on our gigantor Monte radiators: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc8oye Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 there ya go.. now you are on the right track!!! the electric fan controller I got from the parts store is a relay that uses a temp. probe in the radiator to switch on/off. i think it was about $10.. worth considering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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