Engine From H---L

[70 Iron]

Hey Guys,

Need some opinions ,

As some of you know I bought a New GM 427 Big Block Engine last yr,I had 2300 miles on it and it started banging missing ect from the valve train along with metal pcs seen in the oil also sucking oil 2 qts to 500 miles.,Gm replaced the engine and paid for the install. This new replacement has 1300 miles and it is doing the same , The noise  is like collasped lifters maybe 3-4 of them along with missing popping ect from the tailpipes.You can sit and idle  and it will clear up for a few second to minutes and start again ,you can't drive it anywhere .

We called Gm and they don't want to hear it since its the second ,won't return calls ect, my guy at the garage is handeling the problem since the engine came thru his garage. We were at a standoff  so I decided to pay my guy to  tear it down and install new lifters also inspection . After the tear down he saw that the cam had a path already worn on the lobes !! How  ?? it only has 1300 miles of easy driving .So now that we open a can of worms I bought a New  Steel Roller Comp Cam with matching lifters , new springs ,timing gear and chain all  Comp parts.Adjusted them down 1/2 turn like the specs said with the new Cam. Now here's the B-t-ch,It still has the same problem !! right from startup,He primmed them until oil was coming out of every push rod and lifters were pumped as well. We installed a oil pressure gauge on the top of the engine and the bottom  and they read 60 lbs cold,we wanted to be sure if it did this again we could read the top gauge pressure so its fine.I called Comp cams for some advise but they had no answers.I just can't beleive its still doing the same thing.

I / we will be pulling it  soon if we can't find the problem and will be Reinstalling the original SB 350/300 ,this has been going on since last Nov with 2 engines ,I bought it last Nov on my birthday and its been" H" ever since,I'm out of patients (and money).

Do any of you have any opinions what to try next ? This engine is the ZZ 427 ,I also went with a cam simular to the orig one that came in it,just a little more dur,Lobe centers are the same and the lift is very slighly less. Both are steel Rollers.

Any advice ,opinions will greatly be appreciated (and Sympathy) 

 

Terry

[Jason72]

I would suspect lifter bores...

[MCfan]

I can't offer any advice, but you certainly have my sympathy, Terry!  That is a real bummer!  I would expect more of a GM and their crate engine, especially one as pricey as your 427. 

 

Way back in '73, the 402 in my new '70 Monte developed popping noises similar to those you describe but that engine already had 50K miles on it. I pulled the intake manifold and found several of the cam lobes were worn badly and the bottoms of the lifters were mushroomed so badly they were almost impossible to remove. I took the opportunity then to have the heads refreshed and the machine shop guy said they had seen a lot of BBC cams that had failed that way - allegedly due to poor heat treating. Back then I ran Pennzoil 30 weight year around and changed it religiously at 3K miles.

 

With your new roller cam, it is surprising that you are seeing the same failure symptoms after only 1300 miles.  It almost suggests that there is something else seriously wrong with that engine that may be causing the valve train to fail.  Oil pressure might be good but restricted in some weird way ... don't know ...

 

There are plenty of engine gurus in this club to give you helpful insights.  Sorry for all your troubles, my friend - hope you get it sorted out soon.

[Sam (Bones)]

since you have changed the cam and lifters....

 

ignition system? plugs, wires, distributor

 

heads? valve guides, valves and seats

 

since this is the second! engines that has done the same thing, I would really concentrate on the ignition system

[70 Iron]

Thanks guys, I'll be waiting for a couple of days to come up with a fix  then  I'll trailer it to a Gm dealer to hear it run before we remove it,then I'll drop it at their door step . I may have to remove the Comp prts before I give it to them. Don't want to give them a loop hole.

 

Terry  

[70 Iron]

Sam,just wondering how the ignition could make the lifters sound loose then quiet ? Not disagreeing now  Sam lol.

Only about 1/2 of the lifters sound like they loss prime.

 

thanks,Terry

[Sam (Bones)]

what are you using for your ignition system?

 

plugs?

distributor?

cap and rotor

 

I have heard some horror stories about the distributor caps that route the wires to each side  (left side/right side) and reroute the the terminals inside the cap

[70 Iron]

Sam,just wondering how the ignition could make about 1/2 of the lifters sound loose off and on ? Not disagreeing now Sam lol.

This new replacement 427 came with all new wires ,plugs,dizzy, heads ect.It did last for 1,300 MI .

 

Terry

[70 Iron]

Sam ,this new replacement came with all new ignition ect, and heads I didn't use any of the prts from the first.Thanks

 

Terry

[70 Iron]

Sorry about the repeats,I couldn't get it to post

[70 Iron]

Sam to answer your question ,they are all GM wires ,cap,dizzy ect. Also its not one of those caps that seperates Right and left but the old way 18436572 

[Sam (Bones)]

where is the second place you took the oil pressure from?

 

I know the first is by the oil filter

[70 Iron]

Sam, on top behind the intake,there was a plug in the block not where a SB woud go but below a little.It read 60 lbs cold ,didn't want to run it until it it heated up because of possible more damange. I used an electric type there and the orig down by the oil filter He also checked it there with a gauge and it read the same as the top

 

Terry

[Sam (Bones)]

I'm asking because I wanted to know if it is after the distributor, the distributor seals the oil passage that feed the oil galleries to the lifters, I have a very noisy hydraulic roller too 

even after 2 sets of lifters, 3 cams, different heads

 

I know this makes a mess but run it with the valve covers off and the oil should be shooting out of the rockers to make sure they are getting good pressure

 

I would also pull the distributor and measure the diameter of the two sealing areas, and also the block

 

is the oil going past the distributor causing the the lifters to lose oil pressure?

[70 Iron]

Thanks Sam,I'll make a copy of your suggestions and give it to him. Would it run quiet for 1300 miles if this was the case?

 

He did prime the engine and the oil was coming out all the push rods he even turn it by hand 180 and primmed.

[Sam (Bones)]

so this was a all of the sudden change?

 

[70 Iron]

Yes Sam ,It started all at once,I left it ide for awhile and it went away I drove it a few miles and it started again when I was pulling it in my garage.  

[Sam (Bones)]

does it seem to be both banks or just one side?

 

[70 Iron]

Both banks

[Sam (Bones)]

wish Mike would chime in on this

 

for this to happen suddenly and even with a new set of lifters, sure seems like a lack of oil, but why?

 

the distributor still sticks in my mind

[Mike 57]

Here are some thoughts off the top of my head.

First I would tighten the lash.

Aluminum heads grow when they get hot. I run a solid roller my cold lash is 6 to 7 thousandths tighter than my hot running lash. If you are running standard hydraulic rollers you are not anywhere close to being centered in the hydraulic chamber. 1/2 a turn on a 7/16th fine thread stud is .025 of an inch. Get the engine warm your lash is now around .019 to .018. lifters and oil are warm, big block valve train geometry, I think I would tighten the lash.

 

I think what Sam was getting at on the ignition thoughts was this.

If the ignition is not up to par, voltage low to the coil usually retards timing heats the exhaust valve and loads the lifter.

Advanced timing rattles the valves.

Retarded timing see above.

Any way you look at it you are beating up the rollers I would tighten the lash.

 

I wish I was closer to you I think I could cure it!

 

I feel your frustration if you want to talk about it give me a call. 724 714 1974

 

 

[70 Iron]

Thanks guys for you advice and I'll share it with him today when I go down.He suggested turning then down but wants to wait until a friend engine builder of his stops by to hear the problem first. Thanks for your help ,I value your opinions/advice very much. Anything else you think of throw it out there ,thanks.

I'll let all know what comes of this.

 

Terry

[70 Iron]

Hi guys,I went down to the shop today and here is whats going on. I had him do a lash adj hot and running ,just to be certain where the push rod is and not depend on the finger turning the push rod,the old school where I understand ect .He loosen the adj nut and lock backed it off until you begin  hearing the clicking and adj 1/2 turn down on them all ,did all the right bank. they all sound like a sewing machine ,we then took them another 1/2  making it 1 full turn and still no change. Now don't get this mixed up with the click you hear at 0 lash ,they sound very noisy like on a 1-10 they are a 8 or better.I know you should hear them slightly being a steel Hyd roller cam,roller lifters that has the link on them (tying 2 together) and aluminum rockers.I used all new comp cam prts ,cam,lifters,behive springs (which were on )gear and double chain.These can't possibly be made to be this loud ?

I had him back them off to 1/2 turn which makes no difference from 1/8 turn to 1 full,again this isn't the "o" lash sound  but a loud hollow much worse then any soilids that I ever heard.

At this point I told him to bolt it up and I'll bring it home out of his hair,its been very flustrating since day one with this engine. I'll think about whats the next option with this,I right now plan on taking it to GM to hear but don't want to tell them that I replaced the GM prts with comp,I just want them to hear it and put the ball in their court,I spent a lot of cash trying to fix it .

This engine is the crate ZZ 427 and it has the retro fit rockers ect.Aluminim heads.

To close,just want to say that when this lifter  problem started I had 1300 miles and it sounded like 2-4 lifters clasped,and would pump up and loose prime again a off and on but more on then off keeping me from driving it ,now after we changed all of the prts as you read above it is now noisy all over on both banks but not missing like it was.Its almost like the lifter were made this way to make all the noise.I'll call Comp tomorrow and see what they have to offer.

I'm wondering if I changed the lifters back to new GM prts if it would make any difference.

Also wanted to note that there seems to be plenty of oil pumping from all the push rods

 

Thanks, Terry

[LIL' Mac]

In my opinion Mike 57 probably hit the nail on the head.  Lash.  My self, I am a zero lash, mechanical lifter kinda  guy, with what I build anyway.

 

 A couple of other things that come to mind.......Proper break in lube,proper break in RPM and amount of break in time.

 

Also, geometry and combination is EVERYTHING.    For example,  I have seen motors that people had honkin' cams and valve springs,  BUT then  used  cheap pushrods, lifters, etc. Wrong length pushrods, etc.  If it aint right, I guarantee you something in that valve train will suffer.

 

Finally, I  only use QUALITY parts.  I would rather use a high dollar used hard part, than a crappy cheap new one.  Any day. And I do, if they are nice enough.

 

   I like Crane, Jesel, etc.  I have never had a Crane lifter fail, in almost 40 years of building. I refuse to use C.C. lifters, EVER. I use some of their other parts, but not lifters.  I'm sure other guys will disagree, and that's ok, just MO.   I will spend 3 times, or more, of what average lifters cost, when I buy them.  They are the engines  heart  and worth every penny. JUST  MY  OPINION.        Sorry to ramble, hope this helps.  

[70 Iron]

Thanks Mac,

This is a steel Roller cam so the breakin is different from a flat tappet, but it was well lubed and every thing seems to be in line ,push roda centered in the guides ect.we did treat it a little like a flat tappet and kept the rpms up  until we heard all the noise so we shut it down before any more damange could happen. As I said above,we went to O lash and heard the clicking then turn it 1/2 turn and up to 1 full turn ,the clicking went away with finger tighting the adj nut  "BUT" the loud hollow noise from the valve train would'nt get any better from 1/8 turn to 1 full turn just didn't make any difference no matter how tight you made them.

I called Jegs about the problem and told them I wanted to return them ,I'm thinking about going back to the GM lifters.

 

Thanks