colonel Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 My 3 hour old 496 made an executive decision to use 15V technology custom designed by itself. Attached are the results of its decision. The valve by the way is stuck in that position. Won't move at all. Surprise Surprise. The 6 hour version of the 489 I built last season was my fault but I am not sure if I can blame this one on me. This was however 1 of 2 hydraulic roller lifters that did not seem to have any give when I set the valves as I assembled things. The other one was on the passenger side but there was nothing broken on that side of the engine......yet. Needless to say I won't be bringing the Monte to the Western meet this year in Penticton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 7, 2015 Author Share Posted June 7, 2015 May have figured out why those lifters did not have any give. The 2 that had that problem were the 2nd from the back on each side. When I took them out of the 489 I put them in containers full of oil and put the ones at the back in the bottom so the top ones would have been the front ones. I put the top ones in the front when I put them in the 496 so the back ones were at the back again in this engine. I thought I put them in the same side as well but coud have got them on the opposite side this time which would mean the 2nd from the back in the 496 would have been the back ones in the 489. Due to my mixing up the cyl 1 and 2 bearing caps on the 489 and casuing the scoring in cyl 1 there was a lot of metal running around in that engine. So my theory is that despite having a magnetic drain plug, a block off plate so 100% of the oil goes through the canton filter that filters down to 8 microns if I had put the lifters back in on the opposite side this time that means the problem lifters were at the back of the 489 and thus the first ones to get any metal that made it by the magnetic plug and filter. I know the oil was getting through the lifters and on down the line so they were not blocked but perhaps those lifters did get some metal in them that somehow kept the plunger from moving freely this time. Sound plausable?? When I noticed this problem with those 2 particular lifters I didn't have much concern about it. Even if that metal did lock up those plungers it really should have just operated as a mechanical lifter right?? I don't see how them being locked would have caused the valve spring to break. The engine ran really smooth with high vacuum. Perhaps this failure isn't related and I just happened to have a couple lifters that were stuck and matched them up with a bad valve spring. Any thoughts?? Either way it would appear I should have looked into the lifter issue before I put it together and gave the engine a chance to fail. I was delayed by other issues that came up while assembling this engine and was needing to get it together and in the car if I was going to be able to bring it to the Western meet. I needed enough time to either get it tuned with the old EFI system or have the time to get the new EFI system on it and set up. Guess I have a lot more time to get the new EFI on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Even though you felt that the lifters had issues, that's no reason for the valve to stick were these pre assembled heads? When using aftermarket heads ALWAYS! disassemble and check everything it is always better to get bare heads and fill them with good parts, 9 times out of 10 they will need work right out of the box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 7, 2015 Author Share Posted June 7, 2015 The Brodix Race Right heads were bought preassembled but were taken apart to extrudahone ( however you spell it ) so were disassembled. I ended up only reusing the valves because when I reassembled them the spring pressures varied from 128 to 145 despite the tags saying they were all magically at 150 and the install height of the spring right against the head was below what their stated height was supposed to be. This would change the closed pressures spring rates etc. and the engine was being given the ability to rev if it wanted ( wasn't sure how the cam was going to work as it was a custom grind for the extra cubes and EFI ) so 1 or 2 valve springs that give up at 5000 would not cut it. So I got some help choosing springs from a local shop and got the PAC beehive springs which lightened the retainer weight over dual springs so the advantage of titanium was not as much of a difference ( not that I intented a high enough rpm the make it worth the cost to save the weight anyway ) and used a locater and some shims to get the install height within .001-.0015 of each other and the springs were much more evenly balanced so all was good. I even sent the old springs, retainers and locks back to Brodix so they could verify the install height and spring pressure issue. They checked them and said they were all within their spec which didn't make me feel very confident in their stuff. So I agree bare heads are best choice then fill it with what you need which I ended up doing essentially but still had this problem. I will check with the shop I got the springs from and see if they can tell me anything from looking at them as to what happened to them. I am going to try and get the head off today and see what the situation is in there. Crossing my fingers for minimal damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 Good news is the head of the valve was still attached to the stem and there is only small contact marks on the top of the piston. Found an additional issue as the exh valve on cyl 3 had broken off about 1/3 of its retainer which was just sitting in the cyl head at the back of the engine so it does appear I didn't do anything wrong to cause this. Yeah for that but now the question is why did these parts fail??? Passenger side had nothing visibly broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Are the springs coil binding? they look very close to that in your pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 That was my first thought as well when I saw the other retainer. Just rolling the engine over I can get .060 of feeler gauges between a coil near the top and took pics (can't see how to attach more pics on this thread) where you can see the valve through the coils easily but not sure if the plunger is fully up without the engine running? I am trying to find a way to measure the travel of the valve and if it matches the .592 it should have then were are good just can't find a way to mount my magnetic base securily to get a measurment on the aluminum heads. I was loaned a spring compressing tool that works off the rocker stud but it is way too far away to do much more than contact the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share Posted June 8, 2015 OK. Officially the problem is the springs were binding. It would appear that when I went to set up the new beehive springs with the smaller retainer I failed to notice the smaller retainer fit inside the top of the valve spring height mic rather than on top like the other 4-5 combinations of the wider double spring retainers and locks I tried to get things set up with. So while my measurements of 1.815 to 1.824 would have given me .040-.050 (still not really enough) of room before binding, taking the .125 off the height I measured creates a binding situation that while at low rpm the movement in the lifter plunger could absorb some or all of it but when they pressured up under higher rpm and were providing full lift they had no room to absorb anything. So I am back to it being my fault again!!!!!!!!!!!! At least the problem was discovered prior to catasrophic damage and thankfully having forged pistons in there I should be able to smooth off the marks on the piston and get it all back together. I figured out how to add more pics in so have a look at the piston and see if you agree. Also attached a pic of the custom bendified valve for your amusement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 9, 2015 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 The important thing is I am not making the same mistake twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Richey Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 When my engine was built, can't believe its been so long ago now, been running almost 7 years. We used Pro Comp Heads, but everything came unassembled and my Engine builder put everything together, and did a mulit angle valve job, etc, Anything that could be done to ensure nothing bad happened wad done. And its been a long time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 That was what actually started this whole process was my Ex friend Jim was a dealer for Pro Comp and told me about a sale they had on their aluminum heads so I splurged and ordered a set. When I got them and you placed the intake gaskets on them you could either line up the intake bolt holes on the head or the runners but not both???? He wanted to rework them and I said these are new and are simply not built right. Basically the relationship between the holes and the runners was 1/4 inch off. Thus started the search for a different affordable deal on aluminum heads that lead to changing blocks etc................and here I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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