Ian Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 OK now that the ignition is all upgraded, I want to start tuning the fuel injection better. It is OK to drive without blowing up the engine, but it still has some spots that are too lean, I think. The Edelbrock system has a narrow band O2 sensor and a tri-color led built into the tuner box. I am looking at a Innovate Motorsports LC-1 with gauge because I can use it with the software that I bought to tune / data-log the system with. I can get a digital gauge or a analog gauge like below. They both use the same controller, and both can simulate the narrow band O2 sensor for the Edelbrock ECM. My question is which do you think will be better / easier to see / use while driving? You can click on the pictures to see them at Summit. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 the bottom analog would be easy to read imo. Are you planning to leave it in the car after its tuned? If not you might want to get an lm1 or lm2 for some better logging capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 I will be leaving it in the car, I have software for logging... I was thinking the digital would be more accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I have the XD-16. It has numbers AND color bars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 In my experience, NONE of the gauges give accurate or useful readings with a narrow band sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 Andreas that one is nice but too much $$$ Mark both of the ones I am looking at are wideband, and they are the best rated ones out there. I found a article where they tested 8 of them side by side and they found the Innovate one to be the most accurate of the bunch. I just want to be able to know how rich or how lean I am in a couple of areas. The one that is part of the Edelbrock system only tells me it is rich or lean, but not by how much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 In my experience, NONE of the gauges give accurate or useful readings with a narrow band sensor. I have the XD-16 with a wideband sensor and it's quite accurate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Maybe I misread your intent: are you going to be adding a wideband 02 sender to hook the gauge to, or running your gauge off of the Edelbrock narrow-band sender? The gauge is only as accurate as the sender. If you are reading from a narrow-band sender, your fancy gauge is only going to be accurate in the "sweet spot", then it will peg either rich or lean as you transition out of that sweet spot. ..Again, you will know it's rich or lean, but not know how much. To make matters worse, our engine design likes it's sweet spot a bit on the rich side from where the 02 sender is calibrated. You just can't get there with a narrow band sender, and you will also have no idea how rich you are under heavy throttle. The gauge will react just like your 3-light display. It might pretend to be giving intermediate readings as you transition out of the sweet spot, but those readings are not accurate. The narrow band is only accurate in a very tiny window when it is straight up in the sweet spot...anything else and it only knows to tell the fuel delivery system "More" or "less". I'd be willing to bet that the Edelbrock system will work fine with a wideband 02 sender, check with them to be sure. If you had the wideband in place then the gauge will give you the info you need. The downside is that the replacement wideband 02 sender is expensive. It is about $80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 Mark both of the gauges come with a wideband controller, and a wideband sensor. The controller will output a narrow band to run the Edelbrock ECM. If you goto http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php you can see all the features. Also the Edelbrock system will not take the input from a wideband O2 with out a controller the fakes it out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 Oh...then once again I did a lot of typing for nothing. LOL It sounds like you've got things under control. I'd go with the analog looking gauge; I just hate digital anything in an old car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 1, 2010 Author Share Posted July 1, 2010 Thanks Mark and the next person looking for information will get what is needed I am still torn on digital or analog for looks, the tuning software will be digital so analog may be nicer to look at after it is tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 1, 2010 Author Share Posted July 1, 2010 Originally Posted By: wallaby In my experience, NONE of the gauges give accurate or useful readings with a narrow band sensor. I have the XD-16 with a wideband sensor and it's quite accurate... Andreas could you take a video of the gauge with the car running some time? Maybe on a short drive? I am going to be out of town next week so I wont be ordering anything yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 I am painting the Monte right now, so there is no driving it until next week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 I just ordered one. I hate the look of digital, but I think it might be better for tuning purposes. I'd rather look at the analog version when I have everything dialed in, but first things first. I ordered the same unit Andreas has. It has a record function that the analog gauge doesn't have, so maybe that will be handy. The setup was only $40 more than the base analog. I have finaly walked away from my useless narrow-band and will soon be enjoying the accuracy of a wide-band unit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 1, 2010 Author Share Posted July 1, 2010 Good news Mark! Now there will 1 more person we can pick the brains of I am waiting till I get back from vacation to order anything. I am leaning towards the analog gauge and matching oil or water gauge from Innovate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 Congrats, Mark. You will love it! Now if we could only get it to change the jets & rods... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 2, 2010 Author Share Posted July 2, 2010 Convert to FI and tune it from the drivers seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 For me, this is one of those things where everything is ok, but how do I really know? I guess people buy tire pressure gauges for the same reason. I have a feeling this is going to get me deep into my carb again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted July 3, 2010 Share Posted July 3, 2010 Geez I love Summit. Order today, and recieve it tomorrow. The gauge kit arrived yesterday afternoon. Today is the day for install. From the literature included in the kit, the analog gauge may have trouble keeping up with sudden changes when it is set to read "instant", but there are several buffer settings to steady the needle for easier reading. You can hook a laptop to the system to store or view outputs instead of the gauge (and choose between analog-looking or digital display on your computer screen) so either gauge works the same. Choose the gauge you want to look at (or best fits your interior decor), and use the laptop for your critical analysis. I believe that the LC-1 harness is all you need if you have a laptop to display the visuals. If you want a permanent install, then you want the gauge to go with it. I'll let you know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted July 4, 2010 Share Posted July 4, 2010 I got it installed, and it displays an error...but I figured it out so all is well. I drove it around to see where my AF ratio is, and it's right on except it's real rich at idle. I could get better throttle response if I can get it leaned out. I'll have to look into that. As far as cruise ratio, at 60mph it is 14.0...at 75 it's 14.5. Full throttle is about 12.5. I did pretty good on this old Q-jet. Now my report on the gauge itself: I went with the digital display unit that also has a sweeping LED display. Right now I wish it weren't so accurate. LOL. The numbers are constantly in motion up & down as you cruise a steady speed. You have to look at it awhile to get an idea of the range it is bouncing between and average it in your head. 12.2, 13.0, 11.9, 12.5, 12.8, 12.3....The LED portion of the display puts it in perspective a little better, but it isn't labeled with any numbers. I think there is programing that can be done to buffer the readout. I'm going to look into that because it's almost impossible to get any information by just glancing at this gauge. It's at "14 point something" is about as good as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 I got the gauge set to buffer the input so it shows a more steady display. It requires hooking up to a computer and calibrating. The computer display was handy for tuning in the garage...I could watch the monitor as I turned the carb screws. Everything turned out great. I have a good ratio at cruise and idle now, and the full throttle ratio was perfect. I can't remember the car feeling so responsive. I WAS running way rich at idle, so I needed a lot of initial ignition timing to make it happy...but then it was over-advancing at highway speeds. I thought I was going to have to recurve my distributor to limit the advance, but the AFR gauge showed me the rich idle problem. Once I leaned out the idle I was able to retard the timing and now it's perfect throughout the RPM range. I'm very happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 19, 2010 Author Share Posted August 19, 2010 Great new Mark! I can't wait to order mine. I am going to be doing some good paying side work the next couple of weekends so I may be able to order min soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted August 20, 2010 Author Share Posted August 20, 2010 You can use 2 channels to measure the A/F on both banks to maximize the tune. My FI only uses 1 narrow band sensor. When I get the gauge and wideband sensor I will have the LC1 simulate narrow band output (essentially a "T") . Most of the newer cars use 2 - 4 channel setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillPatri Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I'm looking at the Innovate Motorsports 3802 $249 at Summit I like the analog gauge & would probably paint 3 white lines on the dial, 13. 14.7 & 15.5 for quick reference. I hope it will screw right into my Edelbrock Pro-flo supplied narrow band O2 bung? BBP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I hope it will screw right into my Edelbrock Pro-flo supplied narrow band O2 bung? BBP Thank goodness, all O2 bungs use the same threads. It will fit. As for the 2-channel setup: In my situation (carburated), I'd find the 2 channels to be "too much information". Even when things are dialed in, the single channel readings are constantly in motion. It would be hard to tell if one was different without recording, graphing, and comparing the session. If the readings on the other bank were slightly off, I don't know if I want to know...or if I'd be able to correct the "problem". My engine has shorty headers and one side is longer than the other. I would think placement of the sensor in the pipes would be critical to get accurate readings you could compare. Just placing one sensor further back would be enough to make that side read different. A carburetor is never going to be perfect, so I chose to simply be in the ballpark. The single channel setup works fine for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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