Guest Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 I sold my last '72 Monte a year ago and have been looking for perfect upgrade ever since. I have my heart set on a either a fully optioned 402 or a 70 or 71 SS. My question though is this... We all know that there are a lot of people that try to push SS clones and I have read a number of postings that claim.."if it don't have a build sheet it is not an SS". Isn't this really a little extreme and or/overkill? If you find a matching numbers car with all the others telltale SS features isn't that enough? I guess my question is...how could somebody fake it unless they doctored up the VIN, the title, the engine, tranny, rear end, front sway bar, shock protectors, air ride system, boxed control arms and emblems? Or put another way.....would anyone pass on a reasonably priced SS Monte if it had everything but a build sheet? I would just hate to pass on a nice SS Monte if for whatever reason somebody threw out the build sheet when they replaced a gas tank or recovered a rear seat. Thanks, JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 There are only 2 ways to prove that a 70/71 Monte is an SS454. 1. If it has a numbers matching 454, it is an SS. The 454 was only available with the SS option. 2. A build sheet with the Z20 SS454 option code. If there is no build sheet and the original motor is gone, there is no way to prove the car is a true SS454. The VIN does not have anything that indicates that a Monte is an SS. With that said, Canadian built 70/71 SS454s did have the Z20 on the body tag but this is very rare. See the SS454 tech page on the site for more info regarding identifying SS454s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tid Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 To add to what Aaron said, a Protecto Plate can also be used to verify a true SS. Although it doesn't offer the Z20 option code, it does give engine block prefixes, as well as trans and axle codes. So in '70, if the POP has a CRN block code and the POP vin matches yours, I'd say you have a true SS. The POP would also help to prove an SS if the original engine was not with the car, because the POP would show which block originally came with the car. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 VIN, the title, the engine, tranny, rear end, front sway bar, shock protectors, air ride system, boxed control arms and emblems? VIN - does not need to be faked, no SS info on a VIN Title - Same as VIN Engine, Tranny - Replacements are available and you could stamp the 'correct' SS code on the engine pad (I think stamping tools are around $50). Or you could say (as I have heard before): "They decked the block while rebuilding and the code is gone" Rear End - Except for the gearing, I do not think the SS rear is any different Shock Protectors - That one is a challenge to fake! But you do have regular Montes who have the level ride option and would be primo candidates for a clone Air Ride - See above Front Sway Bar, Boxed Control Arms, Emblems - Are readily available as repros from parts suppliers So lets add it up: Regular 70/71 Monte in nice condition with Air Level Option and 400 tranny - Maybe $8,000 (?) Rebuild 70's replacement 454 engine - $3,000 Front Sway Bar, Boxed Control Arms, Emblems - $400 Total $11,400 A nice SS Monte should fetch between $15 and $20 k... That's why the Build Sheet or POP are so important, even though they can be faked as well... I would definitely think twice abot buying a 'SS' Monte without matching engine numbers and the rear shock protectors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Or put another way.....would anyone pass on a reasonably priced SS Monte if it had everything but a build sheet? I would just hate to pass on a nice SS Monte if for whatever reason somebody threw out the build sheet when they replaced a gas tank or recovered a rear seat. Thanks, JJ Not all cars came with build sheets and Flint built cars don't seem to have them, my Flint built small block car didn't. If there is no build sheet or other paper work, I wouldn't automatically pass but would spend lots of time looking for the things an SS is supposed to have or evidence it was there once. I also wouldn't pay as much as I would for a documented SS. Some people would pass if there was no paper work because they want to make a display for shows or they don't know enough about an SS to tell if it is real or not. As the prices of true SS cars goes up, it becomes more cost effective to fake an SS and sell it for real SS prices. The only good thing is that some correct SS parts aren't easy to find, like air cleaner or level ride system, so fakes are still not done well for the most part. If someone had all the right parts and built a fake SS with them, it would be impossible to tell without some kind of paper work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 If there is no build sheet or other paper work, I wouldn't automatically pass but would spend lots of time looking for the things an SS is supposed to have or evidence it was there once. I also wouldn't pay as much as I would for a documented SS. Agreed and Agreed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughn Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Just another thought on this. I have a 1970 402 4 speed Monte built in Flint. It is a numbers matching car front to back but no build sheet. I don’t plan on selling it but if I did, would I get as much as the same Monte with the build sheet? I think not and I would think the same would apply to an SS Monte. If you buy a #’s matching car with no build sheet at a reasonable price be prepared to sell it at a reasonable price. I knew this when I purchased my Monte but did not buy it to fix and sell. Just my 2 cents. Vaughn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Simple, I would but ONLY if Leo Konik inspected it in person. If I lived in another state I would want to fly him in if need be. Yes I would have a hard time reselling it as an SS, but if I went through all of that then I would not sell it in the first place. Luckily Leo does not live far from me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughn Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Pete, I could not agree with you more. The reason that I went ahead with the purchase of the 4 speed without a build sheet is that I bought it from Leo. I do not plan on selling it but life sometimes gets in the way of our plans. Vaughn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLASSIK1 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Steve well said i agree 100% , thanks Vaughn and Pete , i was working on these cars as far back as the summer of 77 and have seen a lot of truely unrestored cars and there are a few still left,way before faking a car was even considered so i know a real car when i see one build sheet or not , but it has become a great document to find, also remember if your us built car was sold in Canada you can get build info from gm of Canada Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Vaughn I agree 100% about life getting in the way since I had to sell my Monte 2 years ago this October How time flies..... Leo my friend you are very welcome! You are the ultimate Guru when it comes to these fine cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 Wow! I sure was surprised to receive so many replies to my SS buildsheet question. Thanks! I have been visiting this site for two years and really depend on if for great feedback! I guess I hadn't thought enough about the possibility that someone would restamp an engine block just so it would match the VIN. I guess I don't think deviously enough. Thanks again. Oh, and Vaughn...that is one hot looking Monte! JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Haze Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 I really lucked out since I'm the second owner of my 70 SS and the original owner has the same last name as I do. It's a Flint car and I've yet to find a build sheet. I do have the ProtectoPlate that has my uncles name on it. Having the plate and some other original docs is really cool. As for buying the car in any other situation, I agree with Vaughn. I didn't get the car for an investment. I got it to cruise and attract women. At least the first part of that has come true. Just took some pics of the ProtectoPlate. Haze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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