Will Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 So I have the snowball rolling and things are going well. EXCEPT for my mini starter. Previously I installed it and it did ok, some random fowl noises. Was on for about 200 miles. pulled the drivetrain and found a 6 inch chunk of flywheel chewed up. Starter is for 153 or 168 tooth flywheels. Replaced flywheel to be safe. But no matter what combination of shims I use when I pull the bendix out to check for fit, it sticks to the flywheel to the point that I have to hit it back in with my screw driver. They spring wont retract it. Im using the mounting holes to move the starter as far to the passenger side as possible but it looks like it still need to go just a hair further. Am I just retarded or something? Any thoughts would help. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmanabba Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Well I will try to help but it might not be good news. First question do you have the correct style starter bolts? The ones with the knurled shank. What brand flex plate do you have? I had some experience with some cheap after market ones years ago that were slightly egg shaped and caused a pattern like. You would check the clearance on a low point and would check good. But when you would try to start it when the flex plate was on a high point the starter would self clearance like you see in your pic. I finally found my stash of oem used ones and put one on and solved problem. I have also had good luck using a SFI rated one from JEGS or Summit. Double check your starter gear it probably needs replacement. It has been my experience that you need to start with new starter gear and flex plate when there is wear problem other wise you have the worn part wearing on the brand new. I suspect that your flex plate is the problem and that the new starter had tighter manufacturing tolerances than your old one. But I can't say for sure. Good luck David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 1st plate was a Scat SFI rated 168 tooth. New plate is a TCI SFI approved. Heres the link. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/KeywordSearchCmd?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&Ntk=all&Jnar=0&itemPerPage=90&Ne=1%2B2%2B3%2B13%2B1147708&searchTerm=890-399473 The starter gear isnt showing any wear at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmanabba Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Hmm I have run the TCI and it was a good plate. No experience with the SCAT but probably good also since their engine parts are good. Well there might be a chance that you will have to take the shimming to the next level and shim the outer and inner bolts different. It won't take much thickness to make a difference. But will be a PIA. If you have a source for precision thickness washers I would use them other wise cut down starter shims. When you mentioned that the starter needed to move out a little further then I would start with a thin shim on the inner bolt in addition to what you already have on there. Hopefully you are able to do this with the transmission off so that it is easy to see how the gears are meshing. It is still possible to check any way but it makes it a lot easier. Good news on the starter gear. Hope this all helps. I am going on what I have experienced in the past. Maybe some one will chime in who has a different easier fix. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 Im gonna go at it again next weekend. Thanks very much for the insight David, anything helps. Guys like you who have experienced this are why I love this forun so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I would try a different starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 57 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Well the flywheel is toast. What ministarter are you using? I had issues with one and found it had Nylon reduction gears! Some ministarters come with shim kits to adjust the depth of engagement not only the tooth engagement. Here is an instruction that may help, and it states that the gear may not pull back on its own. hope it helps. starter instructions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 Im using a Summit Protorque Mini Starter. I've seen the circular shims that go behind the mounting block to adjust engagement depth. I looked at the instructions you posted Mike, that makes sense. Im just worried that to disengage I have to literally pound it with the handle of the screwdriver. That seems a bit much. I may just buy a new starter. Just trying to avoid it as my budget for this kind of ran out. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripleydale Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Not trying to be a you know what, but automatics have ring gears, and standards have flywheels. There must be an engine rebuilder or someone near you that has lots of old ring gears. I have a few laying around myself. I have no experience with mini starters, so good luck Will. Hope you sort it out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 On a side note....I've been told by a reliable source that when cars and motorcycles are shut off with the transmission in park the flywheel/ring gear always lands in the same place. To alter this pattern, a vehicle must be shut off while in drive and then put in to park which makes it land in a different place each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 sorry Larry, I will have to dispute that one I would even be willing to place a bet on it, a very large bet too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Well, my brother-in-law is my source Sam. He is an Engineer by trade and knows what he is talking about with this stuff normally and I double checked with him before posting it. We are all wrong at times though. LOL Maybe at some point he was misinformed about this? I'll see if he can back it up with more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 57 Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I would have to have the engine stopping ln the same place proven to me. If we really want to get technical, both automatics and standard transmissions have ring gears. On a standard the ring gear is pressed or heated and pressed onto the Fly wheel On a auto trans the ring gear is welded to the Flexplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 here's what my brother-in-law had to say After re-building many detroit v-8 engines and replacing my share of flywheels and worn out starters, this is what I have seen. Worn flywheel with gear-teeth worn down to the point the starter cannot engage are only worn roughly 90 degrees out of 360 degrees. The balance of 270 degrees the teeth are pristine and untouched, indicating the engine has stopped in the same place repeatedly and restarting engine on the same portion of flywheel wears out only this small 90 degree (roughly) portion of it. On my personal vehicles I shut off the engine in 'drive' and it stops immediately based upon load from torgue converter, and it stops in a different place every time. Inspection of my flywheel shows clear even wear throughout its diameter. A clear indication of engine stopping in a different place. This phenomenon is more prevalent in older Detroit cars, particularly V-8's and they tend to naturally "like" a certain spot to roll over and finally stop at due to larger tolerances and a "looser" engine. Newer vehicles are less likely to show this phenomenon as they are tighter, but I have still seen this in V-8 engines with worn out flywheels on pick-up trucks as young as 2002 with higher mileage (thus "looser" engines). Anyone wanting to verify this should remove the dust shield from their older V-8 car, get a trouble light and roll the engine over with a socket on the harmonic balancer. Observe the 'shiny' teeth on the flywheel vs the untouched teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 In my many years of experience with these engines, I have rarely seen a engine stop in a specific area of rotation, my experience isn't by the flywheel/flexplate but by the harmonic balancer (same difference) and when a starter spins a engine, the engine rotates several times, so the damage should be around the whole circumference, on most flywheels (manual trans) most times the damage is around the whole ring gear, when I have found flexplate damaged in one area it was most times from a bent flexplate or a torque converter that distorts the flexplate an out-of round one would certainly cause a vibration not saying some engines might stop in a specific spot (maybe ones with a weak cylinder or something) but the damage should still be around the whole thing his observations hold no real proof, only his opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 And Sam....his opinion is based on his experience and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 agreed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyDavey Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 pull up the instructions for a MSD starter...they talk in great detail about the correct way to align a starter. Since I used their methods I have had zero issues....just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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