Sam (Bones) Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 some loctite would be a plus too I won't install a flywheel or pressure plate without it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS5 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Now that is waaaaaaayyyy better Murphy. Sam,Dennis and Matt go back to page 5 on this posting and see the position of the mounting bracket and how High Matt's shifter sits compared to Murphy's……. That was my whole concern and take notice how short and the correct length of tail housing. As mentioned before Matt I would hate to see you sink a whole bunch more money into what you are trying to accomplish but that set up you have and tranny with tailshaft wont work my friend for what you are trying to accomplish as you told me you want the factory look. Murphy has the ideal set up if you still really wanted a Hurst shifter but its mounted with the correct plate and correct tranny complete front to back. Dennis I think even with Matt finding the right mounting plate it still wont work for him based on the fact of the mounting holes in the side of the tailshaft. when you look close at Murphy's you see even for the Hurst set up it still requires 2 out of the 3 upper bolt up holes and Matt's still only has the 1 mount hole so even the right bracket wont help as that tailshaft does not provide mounting holes to accommodate it……..And Thats the Bottom Line Cause I said so and not Steve Austin…… hahaha to much wrestling I guess……. Darren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCfan Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Dennis I think even with Matt finding the right mounting plate it still wont work for him based on the fact of the mounting holes in the side of the tailshaft. when you look close at Murphy's you see even for the Hurst set up it still requires 2 out of the 3 upper bolt up holes and Matt's still only has the 1 mount hole so even the right bracket wont help as that tailshaft does not provide mounting holes to accommodate it……..And Thats the Bottom Line Cause I said so and not Steve Austin…… hahaha to much wrestling I guess……. Darren. Darren, with all due respect to your knowledge and experience, I still would not rule out the possibility of Matt finding a shifter mount for his later Muncie tail housing that will work with his Hurst shifter and standard transmission hump. Here's why: 1. As Matt recently pointed out, his later ('70-'74) Muncie tail housing (#3978764) has three mounting bosses (1 upper; 2 lower) instead of 5 (3 upper; 2 lower)mounting bosses of the earlier ('66-'70) Muncie tail housing (3857584). And, as you pointed out, that is similar to the 3-bolt pattern used on the Saginaw tail housing (although it probably is not dimensionally identical). The point is that the two extra mounting bosses on the top are not needed to attach a shifter in this location to either a Muncie or a Saginaw (so Muncie apparently eliminated them). No problem, it should only take three mounting bosses to secure a shifter (using two would be risky and using just one would be out of the question). 2. The new mount used on Murray's rebuilt Muncie should also work on Matt's tail housing. Although Murray's mount uses two upper and both lower bosses (I verified this with Murray), the top front boss is not necessary. Even if there is a hole in the mounting plate where the front upper boss would be, it doesn't have to be used if the shifter already bolts to one upper and two lower bosses. If the three bosses on Matt's tail housing are in the same positions as the 5-boss tail housing (and why wouldn't they be?), this same mounting plate should position a Hurst Competition Plus shifter in the proper location for a standard manual transmission hump. 3. As you can see in the photo at this Link, the Hurst mounting plate #1957773 has four holes for mounting bolts but only three of them would be used in Matt's case. I believe this is the mounting plate that both Murray and I have on our 5-boss tail housings, but if it doesn't work on Matt's 3-boss tail housing, I would almost bet that Hurst or someone else offers one that will work. Bottom line is that the mounting plate shown in Matt's photo is not the correct one for his particular application but it appears that he can get a mounting plate (probably the Hurst #1957773 shown in the link above) that will position a Hurst Competition Plus shifter correctly on his 3-boss Muncie tail housing and be low enough to use a standard manual transmission hump and factory console. That's a simple and relatively inexpensive solution to his manual transmission hump interference problem, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Well I chatted with Leo at koniks klassiks, said my mounting is definately wrong. I guess these cars with the 4spds were mounted solid too the cross member and did not have that rubber mount inbetween like I do so I'll have too figure out where I can get the proper mount and if that will work with my cross member or if I will have too buy the 4spd cross member. Everything about my tranny is a era correct m20 muncie tail stock numbers match with transmission bit from 1971 so unless gm used late 60's muncies in these cars I should be good that way. All muncies from atleast 71 if not 70 only had the 3 holes. So basically I gotta drop my tranny down use a different mount see if that will work for me, now the fun of finding it. Also hurst will take returns if the apication they say will work does not work so I just need too confirm that and get a hold of the shifter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 This Muncie was built March 24, 1970. It has more than 3 holes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 This Muncie was built March 24, 1970. It has more than 3 holes... Seems like 1970 was the year they changed the bolt pattern you must have an earlier 1970 m20, would you happen too know your tail housing number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Originally Posted By: LS5 Dennis I think even with Matt finding the right mounting plate it still wont work for him based on the fact of the mounting holes in the side of the tailshaft. when you look close at Murphy's you see even for the Hurst set up it still requires 2 out of the 3 upper bolt up holes and Matt's still only has the 1 mount hole so even the right bracket wont help as that tailshaft does not provide mounting holes to accommodate it……..And Thats the Bottom Line Cause I said so and not Steve Austin…… hahaha to much wrestling I guess……. Darren. Darren, with all due respect to your knowledge and experience, I still would not rule out the possibility of Matt finding a shifter mount for his later Muncie tail housing that will work with his Hurst shifter and standard transmission hump. Here's why: 1. As Matt recently pointed out, his later ('70-'74) Muncie tail housing (#3978764) has three mounting bosses (1 upper; 2 lower) instead of 5 (3 upper; 2 lower)mounting bosses of the earlier ('66-'70) Muncie tail housing (3857584). And, as you pointed out, that is similar to the 3-bolt pattern used on the Saginaw tail housing (although it probably is not dimensionally identical). The point is that the two extra mounting bosses on the top are not needed to attach a shifter in this location to either a Muncie or a Saginaw (so Muncie apparently eliminated them). No problem, it should only take three mounting bosses to secure a shifter (using two would be risky and using just one would be out of the question). 2. The new mount used on Murray's rebuilt Muncie should also work on Matt's tail housing. Although Murray's mount uses two upper and both lower bosses (I verified this with Murray), the top front boss is not necessary. Even if there is a hole in the mounting plate where the front upper boss would be, it doesn't have to be used if the shifter already bolts to one upper and two lower bosses. If the three bosses on Matt's tail housing are in the same positions as the 5-boss tail housing (and why wouldn't they be?), this same mounting plate should position a Hurst Competition Plus shifter in the proper location for a standard manual transmission hump. 3. As you can see in the photo at this Link, the Hurst mounting plate #1957773 has four holes for mounting bolts but only three of them would be used in Matt's case. I believe this is the mounting plate that both Murray and I have on our 5-boss tail housings, but if it doesn't work on Matt's 3-boss tail housing, I would almost bet that Hurst or someone else offers one that will work. Bottom line is that the mounting plate shown in Matt's photo is not the correct one for his particular application but it appears that he can get a mounting plate (probably the Hurst #1957773 shown in the link above) that will position a Hurst Competition Plus shifter correctly on his 3-boss Muncie tail housing and be low enough to use a standard manual transmission hump and factory console. That's a simple and relatively inexpensive solution to his manual transmission hump interference problem, IMO. Thank you Dennis this information helped a lot I'll have too reaserch all this new info And call hurst too find out some info also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Like Leo said I should not have that 2" rubber mount between the tranny and the cross member either, not 100% what I'm Looking for too mate the tranny too the cross member but ill reaserch that ore also. Definitely making some progress here thanks too all you guys! I'd be so lost right now if it wasn't for all of you and the time you have all taken out of your schedules too help me try and figure this out. Definitely getting it sorted out slowly but surely lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Originally Posted By: Murphy This Muncie was built March 24, 1970. It has more than 3 holes... Seems like 1970 was the year they changed the bolt pattern you must have an earlier 1970 m20, would you happen too know your tail housing number? My tail housing is 3857584. I've also found this document and it sure looks like you possibly have an M22?? https://summitracing.custhelp.com/ci/fat...on+id+chart.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Originally Posted By: lowryder Originally Posted By: Murphy This Muncie was built March 24, 1970. It has more than 3 holes... Seems like 1970 was the year they changed the bolt pattern you must have an earlier 1970 m20, would you happen too know your tail housing number? My tail housing is 3857584. I've also found this document and it sure looks like you possibly have an M22?? https://summitracing.custhelp.com/ci/fat...on+id+chart.pdf Going by the chart I would agree with you except my serial numbers are all calling it a 1971 m20, I ran tail stock number, trans number and date code all pointing to m20, again from what I've reaserched the muncies whent too three bolt holes instead of 5 part way through 1970 I believe. Which makes sense since yours is an earlier 1970 tranny it would fall under the older generation. Even my tail stock number falls under a m20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Actually tail stock just says muncie 1970-74 check these charts out http://www.myss396.com/ChevelleInfo/Transmissions/Muncies.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Actually your tail housing 39788764 shows 70-74, 32 spline output which is correct for an M20, M21, M22. What was you part number again? Starts with a P like in my pics earlier. I'm guessing an incorrect mounting plate was used, but a few calls to Hurst or a Muncie shop (David's, Wright Connection)should clear it up....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Actually your tail housing 39788764 shows 70-74, 32 spline output which is correct for an M20, M21, M22. What was you part number again? Starts with a P like in my pics earlier. I'm guessing an incorrect mounting plate was used, but a few calls to Hurst or a Muncie shop (David's, Wright Connection)should clear it up....... p4m10a is my date code When you say mounting are we talking the piece inbetween the trans and cross member? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 between the shifter and trans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Aw ok wasn't sure that's what I thought I'm kind of all over the place right now with this ordeal lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Seems like Dennis is on too something with that write up he did a page or two back. I think that shifter set up from hurst is going too be the answer too my problems that you suggested Sam. Dennis, what will you be doing for a trans mount too the cross member? I realize that 2" rubber I have isn't supposed too he there and is probably going too be the answer as too why my tranny is sitting up too high Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I used a stock replacement mount and it's 2", same mount as for a turbo 350 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Seems like Dennis is on too something with that write up he did a page or two back. I think that shifter set up from hurst is going too be the answer too my problems that you suggested Sam. Dennis, what will you be doing for a trans mount too the cross member? I realize that 2" rubber I have isn't supposed too he there and is probably going too be the answer as too why my tranny is sitting up too high Matt, I seriously doubt that your transmission-to-crossmember mount is the cause of your shifter to hump interference. I crawled under my car and tried to measure the thickness of the transmission mount and it is very close to 2", just as Sam also said. I suggest that you get the correct shifter-to-tail housing mounting plate and recheck the hump clearance after you install it. I can see from the photos you posted earlier that the base of your shifter is sitting at least an inch higher than Murray's with the mount you currently have. My mounting plate is exactly like Murray's and I have sufficient clearance with the factory manual transmission hump. If your repop hump is true to factory dimensions, all your problems should go away when you install the correct shifter-to-tail housing mounting plate. If I were you, I would order the Hurst mounting plate for a Muncie transmission (#1957773) and remount your shifter with it (using 3 bolts not 4). Then, if you still have interference (which I doubt) you can focus on replacing your transmission-to-crossmember mount with a shorter/thinner one. BTW, looking again at the photo you posted on 1/28 of your transmission mount, I don't think you can go with a much thinner/shorter mount without getting the bottom of the tail housing uncomfortably close to the crossmember and also changing the tailshaft-to-driveshaft geometry. I'm not trying to tell you what to do - it's just where I come out on this very unusual problem. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Originally Posted By: lowryder Seems like Dennis is on too something with that write up he did a page or two back. I think that shifter set up from hurst is going too be the answer too my problems that you suggested Sam. Dennis, what will you be doing for a trans mount too the cross member? I realize that 2" rubber I have isn't supposed too he there and is probably going too be the answer as too why my tranny is sitting up too high Matt, I seriously doubt that your transmission-to-crossmember mount is the cause of your shifter to hump interference. I crawled under my car and tried to measure the thickness of the transmission mount and it is very close to 2", just as Sam also said. I suggest that you get the correct shifter-to-tail housing mounting plate and recheck the hump clearance after you install it. I can see from the photos you posted earlier that the base of your shifter is sitting at least an inch higher than Murray's with the mount you currently have. My mounting plate is exactly like Murray's and I have sufficient clearance with the factory manual transmission hump. If your repop hump is true to factory dimensions, all your problems should go away when you install the correct shifter-to-tail housing mounting plate. If I were you, I would order the Hurst mounting plate for a Muncie transmission (#1957773) and remount your shifter with it (using 3 bolts not 4). Then, if you still have interference (which I doubt) you can focus on replacing your transmission-to-crossmember mount with a shorter/thinner one. BTW, looking again at the photo you posted on 1/28 of your transmission mount, I don't think you can go with a much thinner/shorter mount without getting the bottom of the tail housing uncomfortably close to the crossmember and also changing the tailshaft-to-driveshaft geometry. I'm not trying to tell you what to do - it's just where I come out on this very unusual problem. Good luck! I will call hurst and get that mount you guys are suggesting in the next few days, I have been told by Leo at koniks klassiks I believe he said the original 4spd cars mounted solid too the cross member no rubber mount at all?! Either way first step is too get the mount plate and get this shifter ordered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monte70car Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I believe when Leo said solid mount I think he was talking about at the ends where the crossmember meets the frame. You might have to go with a crossmember like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 4 speed crossmember bolt directly to the frame, it's a different crossmember compared to a automatic that has the rubber mounts at each end of the crossmember, not saying you can't get away with using a auto crossmember, your shifter mounting plate is your problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Interesting that's exactly what mine looks like! Even when I tore the car down when it was an auto it was bolted directly too the frame. Well summit doesn't offer that shift ate found two on Amazon one is $27 one is $100 lol hmm which one too buy lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 is your car a '70? I believe '70's bolted to the frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8Freak Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCfan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Okay, Matt, I am passing on two photos that Darren found last night somewhere on our club site and sent to me. They are photos of a '71 402/M20 build owned by one of our members 714024spd (whose name also happens to be Dennis). Thanks to Dennis (714024spd) for sharing the photos of his build and thanks to Darren for finding them on our site! This is what your setup should look like complete with Muncie transmission, 4-speed crossmember and Hurst shifter. You can clearly see the shifter mounting plate in the second photo (shifter is not attached) and that it is bolted to a single mounting boss on the top of the tail housing (which is just like yours). That is the same mounting plate that all of us use and it should work for you also. Also note in the first photo how the base of the Hurst shifter sits lower on the tail housing than your current set up. That positioning should solve your interference problem. That first photo also gives a good view of the bolted 4-speed crossmember, transmission mount, shifter linkage, ignition interlock linkage and the clutch Z-bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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