my 7d dream Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 I have a 70 Monte with factory air. Most of the system is here except the front hose off the compressor. I'm looking for advice on going back to original set up or Vintage Air? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted March 30 Share Posted March 30 It depends on a lot of factors Dale, with a bunch of different paths to take (and there will be multiple opinions on that too, lol). That being said, there are a couple things to consider first. Has the system ever worked or did you get the car with that missing front hose? Is the original type GM A6 compressor there? Do you want to charge the system with the old R12 refrigerant, or go with the more readily available R134A? Are you concerned about original appearance. How much is cost a factor? - The original compressors were large, heavy, inefficient, and prone to seal leakage. - If the system has been open for any length of time, it'll need a new filter/drier, and a system flush would be recommended as well. I'd try to see if the compressor even turns before wasting time going thru the system, to later find out it's defective anyways (and it could still be a leaker). Personally, I'm not a fan of the Vintage air conversions, especially if the car was a factory A/C car to start with. As long as the original dash controls & actuators work good, everything else in the system can be made to work with readily available replacement parts, as well as R134A upgrade kits. The Sanden type of replacement/upgrade compressors are smaller, more efficient, and don't leak like the old A6's, though they obviously don't look stock. There are 'S6' compressors that bolt in place of the originals, but have Sanden type internals. They are a bit expensive though, but can be painted black to mimic a factory type installation if that's your goal. The whole thing can snowball from there. R134A isn't as efficient as R12 at making cold air, plus the molecule is smaller, making replacement hose selection a factor. R134 hoses are a 'Barrier' type, with an internal liner of sorts, that helps keep the smaller refrigerant molecule inside the system. Popular opinion is that good, used R12 system hoses are OK to re-use as the old oil in the system coated the inside, helping to create a bit of a sealing effect. Oh, it's recommended to replace all of the system O-rings to 134a spec materials too. The refrigerant oil is different too, necessitating a system flush as well. R134a replacement evaporators & condensers tend to be a 'parallel flow' type, which is more efficient at heat transfer than the old originals. I've converted systems with the old components, and systems with the new parts and can say the new ones seem to make for colder measured air temperatures coming out of the vents. It obviously comes at a cost though. Labor is another factor, would you be doing the work yourself, or farming it out? I tend to like the stuff that 'Original Air' group has, plus have had great luck with their customer service. Others here like different vendors. If you're missing parts, or want to upgrade to the more efficient parts, their 'Upgrade' kits are complete with the better evaporators & condensers, fit good, and work great. They have 3 stages, all with varying degrees of parts & prices. Stage1 with compressor, hoses, filter/drier: https://www.originalair.com/69-72-chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-carlo-sprint-134a-rotary-compressor-upgrade-kit-stage-1 Stage 2 and 3 are available with more parts (they're not showing a Stage 2 for Monte that's $200 cheaper, which deletes the evaporator, but call them and they'll make it up if that's your choice). Stage 3 is the best they offer, are complete, and work well. For the extra $200, that's my choice, though it's extra work to replace the evaporator. My motto, do it right, do it once and be done with it... : https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ultimate-engine-compartment-upgrade-kit-134a Here is the S6 compressor I spoke of, that looks stock. It can also be had in black: https://www.originalair.com/s6-compressor-new Parts: https://www.originalair.com/replacement-parts Hopefully, this gives you some info and direction. If you have questions, just ask, or PM me your phone number and I can explain things in more detail. This is just a small bit of info regarding a conversion, there are plenty of other factors, and tips necessary to make a good installation. EDIT: I forgot, they do have 'Stock' replacement kits too, with the A6 compressors. Appears to be the same prices, but still with the leak prone, heavy, horse power robbing compressor. Still, it would be a good choice for the purist type of owner. https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-compressor-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-1-exc-1970-with-bbc-2 https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-2 https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-3 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my 7d dream Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 Thanks for all the info. Very informative! I do we want to do it right and be done with it. I recently purchased the car and trying to fix all the issues. I really appreciate your expertise and knowledge. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searsman Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Well said Joe!!!. There’s a multitude of variables… my 71 has original style compressor but has been converted to R134 , And does well.. did not replace hoses so I have to keep tabs on Freon pressure about once a year.. much better than trying to find R 12 here tho… 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my 7d dream Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 Thanks. Sounds like a good option. I will check it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my 7d dream Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 On 3/30/2024 at 3:15 AM, jft69z said: It depends on a lot of factors Dale, with a bunch of different paths to take (and there will be multiple opinions on that too, lol). That being said, there are a couple things to consider first. Has the system ever worked or did you get the car with that missing front hose? Is the original type GM A6 compressor there? Do you want to charge the system with the old R12 refrigerant, or go with the more readily available R134A? Are you concerned about original appearance. How much is cost a factor? - The original compressors were large, heavy, inefficient, and prone to seal leakage. - If the system has been open for any length of time, it'll need a new filter/drier, and a system flush would be recommended as well. I'd try to see if the compressor even turns before wasting time going thru the system, to later find out it's defective anyways (and it could still be a leaker). Personally, I'm not a fan of the Vintage air conversions, especially if the car was a factory A/C car to start with. As long as the original dash controls & actuators work good, everything else in the system can be made to work with readily available replacement parts, as well as R134A upgrade kits. The Sanden type of replacement/upgrade compressors are smaller, more efficient, and don't leak like the old A6's, though they obviously don't look stock. There are 'S6' compressors that bolt in place of the originals, but have Sanden type internals. They are a bit expensive though, but can be painted black to mimic a factory type installation if that's your goal. The whole thing can snowball from there. R134A isn't as efficient as R12 at making cold air, plus the molecule is smaller, making replacement hose selection a factor. R134 hoses are a 'Barrier' type, with an internal liner of sorts, that helps keep the smaller refrigerant molecule inside the system. Popular opinion is that good, used R12 system hoses are OK to re-use as the old oil in the system coated the inside, helping to create a bit of a sealing effect. Oh, it's recommended to replace all of the system O-rings to 134a spec materials too. The refrigerant oil is different too, necessitating a system flush as well. R134a replacement evaporators & condensers tend to be a 'parallel flow' type, which is more efficient at heat transfer than the old originals. I've converted systems with the old components, and systems with the new parts and can say the new ones seem to make for colder measured air temperatures coming out of the vents. It obviously comes at a cost though. Labor is another factor, would you be doing the work yourself, or farming it out? I tend to like the stuff that 'Original Air' group has, plus have had great luck with their customer service. Others here like different vendors. If you're missing parts, or want to upgrade to the more efficient parts, their 'Upgrade' kits are complete with the better evaporators & condensers, fit good, and work great. They have 3 stages, all with varying degrees of parts & prices. Stage1 with compressor, hoses, filter/drier: https://www.originalair.com/69-72-chevelle-el-camino-malibu-monte-carlo-sprint-134a-rotary-compressor-upgrade-kit-stage-1 Stage 2 and 3 are available with more parts (they're not showing a Stage 2 for Monte that's $200 cheaper, which deletes the evaporator, but call them and they'll make it up if that's your choice). Stage 3 is the best they offer, are complete, and work well. For the extra $200, that's my choice, though it's extra work to replace the evaporator. My motto, do it right, do it once and be done with it... : https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ultimate-engine-compartment-upgrade-kit-134a Here is the S6 compressor I spoke of, that looks stock. It can also be had in black: https://www.originalair.com/s6-compressor-new Parts: https://www.originalair.com/replacement-parts Hopefully, this gives you some info and direction. If you have questions, just ask, or PM me your phone number and I can explain things in more detail. This is just a small bit of info regarding a conversion, there are plenty of other factors, and tips necessary to make a good installation. EDIT: I forgot, they do have 'Stock' replacement kits too, with the A6 compressors. Appears to be the same prices, but still with the leak prone, heavy, horse power robbing compressor. Still, it would be a good choice for the purist type of owner. https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-compressor-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-1-exc-1970-with-bbc-2 https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-2 https://www.originalair.com/70-72-monte-carlo-ac-replacement-parts-kit-v8-stage-3 Thanks for the advice! I decided to go with stage 3 of Original Air. I plan on installing the parts myself and it seems the condenser is a bear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 9 minutes ago, my 7d dream said: Thanks for the advice! I decided to go with stage 3 of Original Air. I plan on installing the parts myself and it seems the condenser is a bear! That's a very good choice Dale. I'll PM you my phone number, there's plenty more info that may help you, especially if you're doing it yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marks71 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 What are some tell tail signs that a system has been converted? Mine still has the A6 compressor, but it appears the filter-drier has been changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 15 minutes ago, Marks71 said: What are some tell tail signs that a system has been converted? Mine still has the A6 compressor, but it appears the filter-drier has been changed. Tough to say, especially if they didn't leave a 'conversion sticker' someplace. Check the high and low gauge access points, do they have adapters put on there to accept R134A connections? That would be my first place to look. Next would be if the POA valve was replaced with a cycling switch maybe. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragCat Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 6 hours ago, jft69z said: Tough to say, especially if they didn't leave a 'conversion sticker' someplace. Check the high and low gauge access points, do they have adapters put on there to accept R134A connections? That would be my first place to look. Next would be if the POA valve was replaced with a cycling switch maybe. Ive heard both sides about this and I'm NO mechanic......But was told you can add R134A to the old system. I'm sure someone more knowledgaeable will comment/update this scenario. DISCLAIMER....... maybe I was told this because I don't run my a/c, I just wanted to test the system after the engine swap to make sure everything was working properly. I bought the adapter kit, charged and tested the system, all ok. Haven't used it since. I removed the fittings to keep the stock look 😮 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 13 hours ago, DragCat said: Ive heard both sides about this and I'm NO mechanic......But was told you can add R134A to the old system. I'm sure someone more knowledgaeable will comment/update this scenario. DISCLAIMER....... maybe I was told this because I don't run my a/c, I just wanted to test the system after the engine swap to make sure everything was working properly. I bought the adapter kit, charged and tested the system, all ok. Haven't used it since. I removed the fittings to keep the stock look 😮 You can't simply mix R12 and R134a refrigerant. So, don't add refrigerant without knowing what is in the system, or if it has been converted. There are refrigerant identification analyzers out there, but they're very expensive. About as expensive as replacing your entire A/C system because you didn't service it properly. Besides the fact the refrigerants have different chemical properties, the lubricants are entirely different and could also lead to destruction and expensive repairs. Here's some info, straight from a refrigerant manufacturer. Look at the parts regarding compatibility of refrigerants, lubricants, and seal materials. Doesn't exactly paint a pretty picture. https://www.general-refrigeration.gr/images/eshop/catalog/products/0454/files/R134a information.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBMan Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 As usual, lots of great info from @jft69z. I just finished a complete custom install of the Classic Auto Air system in my '70 Monte Carlo (uses the Chevelle kit and they supply longer hoses). I'm going to post a detailed outline of my review in the near future but I chose the Classic Auto Air system mostly because it retains use of the original dash vent outlets on both sides plus the two center vents are supplied to replace the "Chevrolet" blank knock-out plate that's in place in non-a/c cars above the HVAC controls. Also, I chose the S6 compressor for the reasons that Joe outlined: fits in place of the original A6 using the factory brackets and far more reliable and efficient than the old A6's. I had my compressor Cerakoted satin black and made a custom cover so it more closely resembles the A6 in addition to a custom decal to apply that mimics the original but has the correct specs. I also replaced the stainless hardware on the compressor with black (screws) so it all matches. Don't be fooled, these kits are not "bolt in" despite what they tell you. They all need some modification and/or fabrication. I spent two months in my spare time and did a lot of custom work including the compressor, face plate for the control panel, and firewall block-off panel. I've been happy with the sales and support that I've received. Attached are a couple of photos. More to come in another post sometime in the future. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Looks great Bryan, you always do good work! Laughed about everything needs modification, so very true. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBMan Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Thanks Joe! My attention to detail is a blessing and a curse. Yep, very few aftermarket parts are truly "bolt on". Funny not funny. LOL 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stangeba Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Looks great! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marks71 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 I really like what you did with the compressor and your control panel looks amazing. You sure do have an attention to detail. I’m unfamiliar with Cerakote. Guess I’ll have to Google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBMan Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 22 minutes ago, Marks71 said: I really like what you did with the compressor and your control panel looks amazing. You sure do have an attention to detail. I’m unfamiliar with Cerakote. Guess I’ll have to Google it. Thanks Mark! Cerakote is very similar to powder coating except the 'baking' temperature is much lower so you can coat metal parts that have plastic or rubber parts that can't be removed (seals, for example) and it can also be used to refinish/coat plastic. It has a durable finish that is very heat resistant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marks71 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Thanks for the info, the finish looked great. When I googled it I got a spray protectant for plastic trim that could be purchased from Walmart which I knew couldn’t be what you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marks71 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Doing more research and now I’m really intrigued with this. Is this something you did or did you have a company do it? I’m familiar with powder coating, but on metal. How do they get it to work on plastic? I’d appreciate it if you could walk me through the process. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBMan Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 20 minutes ago, Marks71 said: Doing more research and now I’m really intrigued with this. Is this something you did or did you have a company do it? I’m familiar with powder coating, but on metal. How do they get it to work on plastic? I’d appreciate it if you could walk me through the process. Thank you I had a local company do it. More and more companies who do powder coating are doing Cerakote. I can't explain the process other than knowing the baking or curing process is done at a lower temperature than powder coating; around 200° I think (compared to 400°+ for powder coating) which makes it applicable for plastics. I restored a motorcycle and Cerakoted all of the plastics to restore the faded finish. https://www.cerakote.com/cerakote-industries/automotive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmatt9471 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Subscribed - great information. Thanks,Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marks71 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Learned something new today. Looks like something that’s feasible in a home shop for small parts. Thanks for the info. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBMan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 10 hours ago, madmatt9471 said: Subscribed - great information. Thanks,Matt Welcome to the group! You will find the guys around here to be super helpful and full of great information. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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