Z06Electron Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Been sitting for a while and we were having some front yard work done. Took the battery down to be charged and they said it was bad. Tried my battery out of our suburban and it tried to start. Then wouldnt, then finally tried again and started. The problem is the starter is not engaging and the previous owner told me occasionally he had issues with the key switch but i'm wondering if that was really the issue. He jimmy rigged the whole electrical and it is a nightmare mess under the dash. The car wont even turn over but the interior lights will come on. When I go to start it the lights all go out which i'm guessing is normal. I hear a clicking and found a relay under the dash. I figure there are relays, an ignition switch, the car's park indicator linkage, the battery, and the starter at very minimum that could be wrong with it. The irony is the damn thing started to move itself out into the street before finally going dead once and for all. I had planned on selling the car, but of course now it won't even start. Where should I start looking for the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 Been sitting for a while and we were having some front yard work done. Took the battery down to be charged and they said it was bad. Tried my battery out of our suburban and it tried to start. Then wouldnt, then finally tried again and started. The problem is the starter is not engaging and the previous owner told me occasionally he had issues with the key switch but i'm wondering if that was really the issue. He jimmy rigged the whole electrical and it is a nightmare mess under the dash. The car wont even turn over but the interior lights will come on. When I go to start it the lights all go out which i'm guessing is normal. I hear a clicking and found a relay under the dash. I figure there are relays, an ignition switch, the car's park indicator linkage, the battery, and the starter at very minimum that could be wrong with it. The irony is the damn thing started to move itself out into the street before finally going dead once and for all. I had planned on selling the car, but of course now it won't even start. Where should I start looking for the problem? At this point all I hear is a click which tells me I think it is at least going to a relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTSS454 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Check for voltage at the 2 small terminals on the starter, One will be hot with key on, the other will be hot with key to crank. If you have both of those we can work down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTSS454 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Double Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monte70car Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Personnel I would put a org. style wire harness in the car to get raid of the nightmare under the dash. There is also an ign. fuse that might be blown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 I found the ign wire into the fuse block but didn't see an actual fuse. Is it in another location? I'm not going to replace anything else since I'm selling it, I just need to figure out why it would have started and then just went dead for good. I have been cleaning stuff and now the brake and temp lights don't go out when the key turns. the temp light now comes on solid when in start position, but still no cranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTSS454 Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Do you have power to the inside small terminal at the solenoid when you turn key to crank? If no then the next place to look is at the neutral start switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 Where are both of those? I put a meter on the starter and the only thing with 12 volts is the main power wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTSS454 Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Looking at the solenoid the main stud is at 12 o'clock it should be hot all the time, the 3 o'clock terminal is the crank terminal it should be hot when key is turned to crank, or you can jumper 12 and 3 and engine should turn over. 6 o'clock is the feed down to the windings in the starter, leave it alone. 9 o'clock is 12 volts out to the coil to bypass the ignition resistor that is built into the harness. Edited because I have club sized fingers and often hit 2 keys at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 12 o'clock is hot all the time no surprise there. 3 o'clock has a wire hooked to it that is never hot whether it is in run position or start position. I figured this meant the starter was good but decided to have it tested just to be sure and it tested good. Where do we go from here? Also nothing hooked up to the 9 o'clock position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 It sounds like for whatever reason, the starter motor isn't getting the signal to crank. It needs to have power at that 3 O'clock solenoid terminal. The question now is why isn't the key switch sending power to the solenoid terminal? It could be the switch itself, the neutral safety switch, or some bad wiring in-between. The next step is to try starting the car with the shifter in the neutral position. Try holding the key in the start position while wiggling the shifter around. The neutral safety switch won't let you start the car if it thinks you are in gear, and maybe it's worn or mis-adjusted. Moving the gear selector to neutral will use a different set of contacts in the switch that may work fine even if the switch won't work in park. Wiggling the selector may find a sweet spot where the switch will activate the starter if the switch is slightly misadjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 17, 2012 Author Share Posted May 17, 2012 I have already been trying to start it in neutral and park while moving the entire column around it is completely dead no matter where the shifter is. Also since I was able to get it started and moved before it finally died, I'm guessing it isn't due to a poor wiring job. I am convinced the wiring is in need of a makeover, but I think it is more likely something failed suddenly that is causing the problem. Other than the ignition switch, what else is involved in sending electrical signals to the starter? Are there any relays or boxes I could check first? It is my plan to trace the starter wire back to see where it is coming from. Anyone know offhand how much a new ignition switch is? How hard is it to install? It looks to me like the steering wheel and column don't really come apart and that the whole column would have to be pulled to get access to anything. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTSS454 Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 12 o'clock is hot all the time no surprise there. 3 o'clock has a wire hooked to it that is never hot whether it is in run position or start position. I figured this meant the starter was good but decided to have it tested just to be sure and it tested good. Where do we go from here? Also nothing hooked up to the 9 o'clock position. OK now check for power at the nuetral start switch, it should only be hot when key is in crank position and it needs to be hot on both sides while key is in crank. If you take a jumper wire and run battery hot to 3 o'clock the starter should start cranking the engine, you can always jury rig a push button switch as a way of getiing it to crank but it will make the price go down. The ignition switch is located on the top of the steering column about 12 inches up from where it passes through the floor, the key in the column is connected to it by way of a rod about 10 inches long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo's70MCs Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 See if your getting voltage to the ignition switch!! If not, check to see if you haven't blown the incoming harness's fuse-able link? What happens when you turn on the ignition? "ON" mode only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsterdam84 Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 I had a problem with my challenger where the relay in the ignition relay for the neutral safety was burned out. You would hear it click but the car would not start. You could even feel the relay switching inside but the contactor must have been damaged. Replacing that fixed my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo's70MCs Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 I had a problem with my challenger where the relay in the ignition relay for the neutral safety was burned out. You would hear it click but the car would not start. You could even feel the relay switching inside but the contactor must have been damaged. Replacing that fixed my problem. I can relate on Chrysler! Maybe! Though our Delco Remy system, has no starting relay? Well maybe I suppose you could call the solenoid a relay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsterdam84 Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Might be bad terminology on my part. Most likely I'm thinking the solenoid. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 See if your getting voltage to the ignition switch!! If not, check to see if you haven't blown the incoming harness's fuse-able link? What happens when you turn on the ignition? "ON" mode only? Definitely getting voltage to the ignition switch, because everything in the whole car works when it is switched to run. The only thing not working is the cranking during "start". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 OK I will check this tomorrow. The previous owner said he was having issues with the ignition switch before and had it replaced, but he had a new key put in the column. My guess is he replaced the wrong part possibly or it went bad again. Are these readily available at auto parts stores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 Originally Posted By: Z06Electron 12 o'clock is hot all the time no surprise there. 3 o'clock has a wire hooked to it that is never hot whether it is in run position or start position. I figured this meant the starter was good but decided to have it tested just to be sure and it tested good. Where do we go from here? Also nothing hooked up to the 9 o'clock position. OK now check for power at the nuetral start switch, it should only be hot when key is in crank position and it needs to be hot on both sides while key is in crank. If you take a jumper wire and run battery hot to 3 o'clock the starter should start cranking the engine, you can always jury rig a push button switch as a way of getiing it to crank but it will make the price go down. The ignition switch is located on the top of the steering column about 12 inches up from where it passes through the floor, the key in the column is connected to it by way of a rod about 10 inches long. Where is the neutral start switch? I found the ignition switch here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 So I decided to trace the linkage back from the tranny figuring eventually I would find the neutral safety switch. I found a frayed wire coming off a two wire plastic connector right next to the shift linkage. The wire was orange. The other end appeared to be shielded with the same material as the cable that hooks to the starter. So I pull up the starter wire. It branches off in two cables. One looks like the main power wire and the other is the orange shielded wire which is now not connected to anything (I think this is the neutral safety wire). I can't believe this issue was likely cause by a bad wire. What are the odds it would start and then die 30 feet away from a broken cable? Anyway I'm going to repair the wire, re-install the starter and I'll report back, but I'm pretty confident this was the issue. Thank you for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Nope starter wire is still dead. I did find this though. The starter wire hooks directly into it. The middle section that looks melted is the one the starter wire hooks to. Two of the wires hooking to it had the shielding melted together. I am wondering if they finally touched and that blew the relay. I am replacing both the relay and the connectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsterdam84 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 That could do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Originally Posted By: amsterdam84 I had a problem with my challenger where the relay in the ignition relay for the neutral safety was burned out. You would hear it click but the car would not start. You could even feel the relay switching inside but the contactor must have been damaged. Replacing that fixed my problem. I can relate on Chrysler! Maybe! Though our Delco Remy system, has no starting relay? Well maybe I suppose you could call the solenoid a relay? Looks like a relay to me. Definitely inline with the starter. Was this added by someone else or was it factory? Next question is how I even know this is the correct relay. After all something caused it to overheat and melt everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06Electron Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 I also found the neutral safety switch which is a completely different set of colored wires. If I just use a jumper across those two wires and the system works then I know I have a bad switch correct? The switch looks to have quite a bit of surface rust on it but I'm not sure that means it isn't actually functioning. I plan on purchasing a new one just in case I need it and going from there. One way or another I need this car running today so I can move it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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