Engine From H---L

[Sam (Bones)]

ya know terry, I've had the same problem, 3 cams, 3 sets of lifters (now running Morals), different heads, changed oil pump

 

I've given up and am driving the crap out of it, and it's been over 8000 miles now, I even ran it last year down the freeway at about 3400 rpm over over an hour

 

still clicking away and running great, so the heck with it, I'm going to grind on it until something breaks

[70 Iron]

 Sam,you also have the BB don't you ? On a scale 1-10 how noisy is yours ?

I'm having him bolt it back up and I want to drive it a few days .just want to see how its running and let the noise go ,then decide whether to change the lifters back to GM,I didn't have "This "sound before the Comp lifters,It sounded like  3-4 collasped lifters and engine shaking (Missing ) now its idling ok but extremly noisy,too ashamed to take it to a show .

 

Terry

[ripleydale]

I also have a big block with a Comp Cam roller setup. I too had nothing but problems out of my Comp Cam lifters. One lifter collapsed, one wouldn't pump up at all, and one would pump up, then lose it, then pump up again. You couldn't pay me to use those lifters again. I'm kind of like Sam now, they're all working, sounds like a sewing machine, and I'm just going to drive the crap out of it and see what happens. Good luck Terry. 

[70 Iron]

  Thanks guys,

We just decided to order the lifter kit from GM prts,these lifters are seperate not  like I have  with the link that ties 2 together. Also they have the girdles. As I understand these link together lifters are made for top racing ect and will be a little noisy ,A Friend /Engine builder of my mechanic have discussed this problem and changing to the seperate lifters/girdle kit is the way to go.At this point I'll try any thing.Its one of the cheapest things to do at this point. He's thinking that the after mrkt lifters are slightly smaller in the lifter bores and only GM will fit the best and quieter.

 

Will let you know. Thanks guys

 

Terry

[Jason72]

Terry, I agree with your mechanic/friend and is why I said to check lifter bores. Production big blocks have finished lifter bores and the GM lifters are what fit best. Aftermarket big blocks rarely have finished lifter bores and need to be honed to size before assembly, because of this most aftermarket lifters for big blocks are  slightly smaller in diameter. Morel lifters are made to the same spec as GM as far as size go and fit best next to GM lifters.

 

Comp cams has some of the noisiest  lifters out there also.

 

If the clearance between the lifter and bore is to large and if you run a thinner oil, the rollers can starve for oil causing the cam lobes to be damaged. I don't know what oil you are running but I never run 5w30 in any performance gas engine.

 

Lastly, I have 22 years working with GM and their parts and can tell you stories about manufacturing issues with machining with all sorts of things that do not get discovered by  or admitted to by GM until they have numerous warranty claims. I would not be surprised if the blocks lifter bores (or one of them) is flawed and the second engine has the same issue due to lack of claims. I am sure that they do not sell enough  zz427s that your second block has the same problem and they do not know about it yet. 

 

   Jason

[70 Iron]

Thanks Jason for this great info,I remember your 1st post and suggesting this could be your problem,I have been giving all this info from all of the replies to my guy at the shop.The block info was great . Just to repeat my self,the first block started missing badly and sounded like 2-3 lifters had lost its prime ,it went away when I run the RPMs up to about 3000 then about 100mi or so came back but never straighten out again.The lifters were very quiet all along until this missing and sounding like collasped lifters.

The second engine after the valves were adj at startup were also quiet until the same sound and the engine missing came in around 1300 miles.Both engines had a light tap under load  but couldn't hear it at idle.

Since the changing of the cam,springs.lifters and chain/pulleys the engine just sounded like the sewing machine as described above but wasn't missing,just noisy .I'm hoping this change to GM lifter kit does the trick.

I was talking to a friend today that has a noisy lifter engine,it was a 402  BB 71 Monte.It also had a aftermrkt cam /lifters. He only bought it to flip though,I was considering it but it slipped away,it was a factory 402 with A/C,buckets  ect.He traded it on a older truck.

 

Thanks again fellows,I'll let you know what the out come is after the change.

 

Terry

[Its Just Me]

Terry:

If you haven't already purchased the GM lifter kit,...I have (and will donate to your cause), a set of GM hyd roller lifters out of a ZZ502 with less than 1000 miles on them.  They come with the "dog bones" and the "spider" retainer and the GM push rods that went with this combo.  I got them from a friend of mine when he went with a crower cam & lifter setup in his 502. I used the cam in my 454 but my block wouldn't  accept the lifters/dog bones, or I would have used them myself.  Let me know if you want me to box them up. 

I can't stand to hear of your problems, but don't have any suggestions.

PM me if interested.

Scott

[70 Iron]

Hi Scott,thank you very much for your generosity,you are very nice to  offer your prts,I deeply appreciate this.

The lifter kit should  already be at the shop though. I'm stopping today to see if he started the replacement of the lifters. Yours sound just like these,The "Dogbones " and all ,but at this point I'll just go with these.They had to be ordered special from GM.Thanks again for being so thoughtfull. I'm hoping this will be the fix.

 

Terry

[Jason72]

Any updates?

[70 Iron]

Hi Jason, he tore it apart last sunday cleaned everything and has the new lifter kit ,dogbones and all  installed, He just needs to finish  adjusting the valves and install the intake ,ect. He only works on it on Sunday when no one is around to bother him ,thru the wk and Sat he has his bussiness to run. I stopped by today but can't see anything,he has it up on the lift out of the way and to keep customers from leaning or scraching ect on it. I hope I have good news by Monday,I ask him if he was putting a big red ribbon around it and giving it back by Xmas,He grinned and said I hope so! 

I'm glad this all happen after the car shows and crusin ,I'm not in any hurry  but would like to know if this fixed the problem. Thanks

I sent the Comp lifters back to Jegs and they gave me a refund for them. no questions asked

[Jason72]

Glad to hear you are getting somewhere. I am very curious about this one....

[7tonemonte]

Hopefully it's all better after this fiasco!

With any kind of luck your biggest concern after this will be how to get both the Montes to Carlisle

I will volunteer my services as a transporter if you need one, Alli can drive mine.

[70 Iron]

Tony !! If I remember correctly , it blew  about a wk after you drove it the last time

 

I reg them both last yr but had a problem with the Turquoise Monte,I'll not chance it this yr and only reg one,don't know which one right yet lol.

[70 Iron]

Run into another hurdle,since the new GM lifters switch we now need shorter push rods,these GM lifters were slighly longer than the ones with the link . He did a pattern check  rocker to top of valve and it wasn't centered as well as he liked ,I don't know whats happing here,but just can't catch a break.

[7tonemonte]

Wow Terry. Truly testing your patience here

I'm glad he is checking all these things along the way though

[70 Iron]

You are EXACTLY right Tony ! I've used up much of my patience and ALL my "walking around" money as well. My guy is doing the best as any one can and checking all that his expertise allows ,He wants it fixed as much as I . I'm very glad that its in his hands instead of most places,they would of threw me and the Monte out long ago. I'm glad he has a extra lift to keep it on instead of pushing it out side,I really think he's more protective of it than I.  I ordered new push rods and a 2 day airfare,should be all here on Fri so he can work on it this Sat/Sunday,Its taking so long because of only working on it on Sundays mostly.

I haven't been envolved as much as I'd like  mainly because of health issues. I've always done most of my own work on my cars ect,but a time has come where i have to sub most of it out.  

[70 Iron]

"UPDATE "

Some of you have been following this flustrating engine issues so here is where I'm at .

 

Recap from the beginning,

 A. New GM crate engine ZZ 427/480 HP  11/26/13

 B.replaced thru the winter with complete BB upgrades

 C.2,300 Mi something in valve train broke ,ie ,lifters collasped ect using oil.

 D. GM replaced engine and paid for installation ect,life was good again .6/30/14

 E. 1300 mi on new engine and same problem as the first ,this time GM wasn't so nice,wanted the Monte in their shop for them to rip apart ,not going to happen.Saw some of there work from the beginning .They tore down this new replacement engine before they sent it to the shop to pull the rocker studs and seal threads (for what ever reason they weren't sealed from factory),when we started it for the first time the rockers were about to come off ,they never adjusted them  and the aluminum rockers looked like they were beaten with a sledge.we pulled the ones off the old engine and swapped them out.

 F. GM was dragging there feet so Told my guy I'd buy the lifters and pay him to replace ,no big deal right !!

 G. Ordered new Comp roller lifters but when when we tore it down they sent wrong lifters ,mine had the link that joined 2 lifters .

 H.this is when a can of worms was open ! ,with so few miles we observed a path already worn on all the lobes,you could feel it also with a steel awl.

  I. So now do you replace the GM junk with more of the same  ??, So we decided to go with Comp roller cam,matching lifters,beehive springs,new GM seals,comp double roller and billet gears ,orig had single,should be good to go right ?

 J.We get the cam and its wrong,mine has the machined end for the end plate so had to send just the cam back, Comp said the lifters were right.

 K.My guy takes a wk off for Bear hunting ! while the prts are coming 2 more wks lost.

 J. So now the following wk he put it all back together,started it and all the lifters sounded like a very loud solid lifter engine,and it wasn't because of the adjustment,He did them all cold  and I had him do them hot and running ,the distink sound you here at  "0" went away but this loud hollow sound stayed at 1/4 ,1/2, 3/4 and a full turn ,there was no way to quiet them down.called Comp and they determined that it was a bad batch of lifters so all had to come apart again ,sent them back for a refund .

 K.My guy along with his friend engine builder thought the right thing to do is to replace original lifters with the type that my crate ZZ454 has,seperate lifters with dog bones ect ,ordered the lifter kit from GM .

 L. Got the lifter kit and my guy takes the wk off for deer hunting another wk gone by  but thats ok .

 M. started to reassemble and found out the push rods were too long because of the longer lenth lifters,Found out the early BB crate 502 's had a problem with the lifters dropping below the dog bones when on the base circle and coming apart so they made them slightly longer.(saw  this on one of the engine build programs)

 N. My guy measures for the right lenth and ordered them from Comp,he did a pattern check to make sure the rockers is hitting on dead center of valve ,all was correct now.

 O.HE reassembled on New Years day and all was sounding great at start up ,since the weather was snowy ,rainy ect he couldn't take it out for a road test until past Sat morning,he was starting it and letting it run in the shop several times making sure all stayed quiet and together.

 P.He brought it to me that morning so I adjusted timing ,idle checked overall and gave it a good cleaning. Sunday I took it out for a drive,drove it about 60 miles or so. It does have a slight valve noise but uniformly and as every one says this type of roller aluminum rockers and all , will have some but with the hood down it can hardly be heard,I can hear it slightly while driving. 

I'm just happy to have it back ,time will tell if it hold up or another issue arises as of now I'm satisfied.

 

All of the above is the reason Dubbed "Engine From H-ll "

[7tonemonte]

And I hear all this started cause of some guy named Tony doing a burnout?

Glad it's bCk together and quiet Terry, this has been quite a saga for you!

[Rock]

just curious....what was the deciding factor on the 427?

 

Why not a 454 or even a 509?

[70 Iron]

just curious....what was the deciding factor on the 427?

 

Why not a 454 or even a 509?

had a 427 back in the 60's and always wanted another ,but also wanted something else other then a 454,"currently already have one of those",or a 502, 572 ect .thats all you see at the car shows and I wanted something different ,"Didn't want all these issues though " 427's from the 60's had alot of respect and GM  wanted  to  mimic these but on pump gas and hydralic roller cam instead of solids.also they have 480 HP instead of 435 back then.

These 427's also have a shorter stroke ,3.750 compared to 4.000 like in the 454,502's ,its more of a 1/4 mi engine (back in the day) if you're into that.