BigBlockMonte Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Hey all I just removed my TH350 in the chevelle and switched it out for a used bowtie stage 2 2004r I picked up. Everything went fine minus I had to grab metric bolts instead of standard but no big deal. I just got it ready to drive today. I even went as far as taking the pressure readings at idle and calling bowtie to tell them. They said the numbers were perfect. I started it up, and let her warm up. I put it in gear and it instantly stalls. The converter I had on the 350 was a 2800-3200 stall. My camshaft is comp cams XE284H. It calls for a 2800+ converter. The converter that came with the 2004r is a 2500 stall. Okay rewind a bit. I removed the dist cap as a percaution not to hit the firewall. When I removed it, I discovered the ball inside the cap that the rotors contacts, was completely burned away, and the rotor was trashed, I wondered why the car was driving weird, okay now I know. I had another cap & rotor laying around. I simply to the coil out of the cap that was on the car originally and placed it into a different cap, and I had a rotor that wasnt beat up so I used it. My neighbor told me that the reason that happened was because I didn't have a ground from the engine block to the frame. So while i was doing the trans, I grounded the engine block to the frame using 2 gauge wire. Nothing else was done. And I drove the car before i tore it down, and it drove fine, well as fine as it could with a burned up cap and rotor. As far as stalling as soon as goes into gear. It also runs very bad now, While in park, there appears to be nothing wrong. But in gear, it stalls, but when you force it to stay running, It hesitates real bad now, and doesn't seem to have any power. I'm lost. My neighbor jumps to the conclusion and says the converter seems to not unlock. As always I ask here before taking the advice of everyone here that has something to say. any thoughts on this, please let me know. Thanks everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 First of all, the stall speed isn't going to make it run like crap and if the idle is turned up high enough, it shouldn't stall the engine when you put it in gear either. How do you have the converter lock up wired? Bowtie normally uses a 4th gear pressure switch, so if you just ran one hot wire to the CORRECT terminal on the trans, it still won't lock up until it gets to 4th. They also usually put a second wire inside that trans that bypasses the pressure switch, if wired to a hot 12v, it would lock the converter all the time. You need to make sure it's wired correctly. If you wire into the bypass terminal, you should be able to put in a switch and hear the lockup solenoid clicking on and off without the car running if you have power and are toggling the switch. If it is locked up, there is no way it would stay running at all in gear, so I doubt that's your problem. If you wired it through a brake switch like they tell you to, as long as you are pressing on the brake, it won't be hot at the solenoid also. It the converter is locked while you are driving the car, you would know. It will drive just like a manual trans, no softness, jerky, etc. I would go buy and new cap and rotor, and make sure all the wires are plugged in correctly and to the right cylinders. Then double check your timing, as too low of timing at idle could make it clunk out when you put a little load on it. My guess is you either have a plug wire on incorrectly, or your other cap is bad too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 I'm doing a new cap & rotor tomm. as far as the lock up wiring. I do ahve the brake switch style. called up bowtie, and they told me to take the wire to the brake switch, then take another wire from the brake switch to a switched 12v source. and the other two connectors on the brake switch was to plug in my existing wires to have the brake lights come on. I did that exactly as they said to do, and confirmed it with a diagram they have online. I'll do the cap and rotor tomm, and report back if it made any changes to the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 What about a vacuum line off somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Just to eliminate a variable, I would unhook the transmission wiring for the test run after you change the cap and rotor. It won't hurt anything to drive the car and not have the 12 volts hooked up. Then you will know for sure it's not a problem with the lockup. Sound like the brake switch is wired correctly, but you need to run the wire to the correct pin in the plug (4 pin connector) on the transmission too. One pin will lock up the converter all the time, one pin will lock in 4th only, the other 2 pins are not hooked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 The plug I have has two wires coming from it, one orange and on purple. Bowtie said to use the wire marked A in the plug that goes to the trans. I pulled the plug and checked and purple was the wire that said A. Vaccum lines I have 3 total. One to the distributor(from the carb), One to the brake booster(from the intake manifold), and One to the PCV valve(goin to the back of the carb). I didn't see any vaccum lines from the 2004r. If you think or know there is one. I will look again to find it. I'm also goin to replace the plugs, thinking back, I removed the passenger side header to drop the trans, and I left the plugs into the head. Not sure but maybe the header cracked one of them. It did fall once or twice. I will atleast check them for any cracks in the porcelain. The cap & rotor seem to make sense, with no load it seems fine, under load and its very choppy, and hesitates badly. Not sure if my parts store has just cap & rotor, I do remember seeing a complete MSD street fire distributor. Hopefully I'll have some answers today for you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Okay I have some news. I called bowtie and told them whats goin on. They ask me what stall I had, Told them I was told it was a 2500. He replied they do their converters in 2's. 2000,2200,2400,2600,2800 etc. I told him this was several years ago and the color is light blue. He replied he believes I have a 2000,2200 or maybe a 2400 stall in there. Which is why its dying when it goes into gear. Great I said, so more money on a damn converter. I also found out the chugging and laziness is probably because of the converter. My cam power range is 2500-6500. Cruising around today the car chugs, bucks, etc until it gets above atleast 2300 rpms then it drives like it did before I pulled the TH350. Cruising on the highway in OD my rpms are 1800-1900 rpms. If I try to accelerate, the car chugs and bucks, If I stay in over drive but go atleast 80mph. My rpms are 2300, if I accelerate then, it doesn't really chug. If i stay in drive, and the rpms are 3500 like they were with the 350. No chug, just goes, So I have 4 choices. (1) spend 600.00 on a converter from bowtie that is 2800 stall. http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=268 (2) Go with this camshaft to match the converter in the car better. http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2135&gid=284 or this camshaft: (3) Put the TH350 back in and sell the 2004r. (4) Live with it. Option 4 is really not an option. Id rather put the TH350 back in, then live with the chuggin along, not wanting to idle. stalling coming to lights etc. But I did enjoy th OD engine was calm cruising down the interstate today. But i'll be honest with you. I have a 1200.00 tied up in this trans and converter. I dont have another 600.00 for another converter, I could scrape up the $280.00 for the cam & lifters alot faster. Or I suppose I could go the cheapest route. put new seals into the TH350. Fill her back up and continue to drive with 3500 rpms at 65mph. I dont know what to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I don't think the converter is your problem, and neither is the cam. It's chugging because it is locked up. I went through all the same stuff, but I found a solution that made mine drive like I wanted to. The 2004r is a great trans if you set it up correctly. Drive any newer pickup or car. They all have a lockup trans and run very low cruise rpms. The trick is they unlock at the slightest push of the pedal, in fact you probably don't even notice it unless you are staring at the tach. They can use a computer to do all the dirty work, you can't. It can be done though with a few components and some wiring, I have done it. You will need a B&M speed lockup control, Vacuum switch, and a Vacuum delay valve. It will eliminate all the chugging at acceleration. I personally think the way Bowtie does the lockup is crap, but it's the cheapest and easiest. Pull the plug on the transmission and go out and drive it without the lockup hooked up. Then let me know if it works/drives well with no lockup. If it does, I will show you how to make everything jive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 and make sure your carb's idle circuit is adjusted properly, ie the vacuum gauge method. That will help with the clunking out in gear a ton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTX Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 One thing you haven't mentioned is what rear end ratio you are running. A 3.55 is a good compromise for fuel mileage and performance. If you are running 3.08 or numerically lower gears you will have a problem with that cam/lockup converter combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I run a 3.73 with a 28" tall tire. I figure with the lower gear ratio in the 2004r compared to the TH350. My 3.73's should feel like 3.90's or 4.10's now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I unplugged the lock-up from the trans, there was no change. Someones about to get a stage 2 bowtie transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 does it chug like that in lower gears at that RPM? if it does...I'll bet on some carb tuning, it could be your idle transfer circuit is rich. try leaning out your idle jets and take a ride and see if it gets any better, I know this is not a fix, but if you lean your idle jets and it gets better, you've narrowed it down some what do you have to lose? it's only a temp tweek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I was running a 4.10 gear with 28" tires. It wasn't good either, even that was too high. I went to a 4.56 and it's much better. At 55 mph it's 2000 RPM's, and I don't let it lock under 55 mph. I'm running a bigger cam and smaller engine than you are. I hate hearing people say to run those 3.08-3.73 gears with the .67 OD, lock-up, and big tall 28" tires. Combined with a big cam, they just don't work together. With a wimp cam and an engine that runs good at 1400 rpms, it's great, but yours obviously aint one of those. Cruise at the RPM you built your engine to run at and it will be alot happier. What RPM do you want it to cruise at? I don't think 2750 at 75 is unreasonable. (which is a 4.56 and 28" tire) The GF just picked up a bone stock 6.6 78 T/A with an M20 and that rolls at 3200 at 75. A new gear set is only 200 bucks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 does it chug like that in lower gears at that RPM? if it does...I'll bet on some carb tuning, it could be your idle transfer circuit is rich. try leaning out your idle jets and take a ride and see if it gets any better, I know this is not a fix, but if you lean your idle jets and it gets better, you've narrowed it down some what do you have to lose? it's only a temp tweek I agree, does it do it in 2nd and 3rd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 it chugs everytime and in every gear until the car gets to about 2300-2500 rpms, then its drives like it did with the TH350. I rechecked timing, its the same as it was with the TH350. about 22 degrees at idle with the vaccum line off, 38 degrees at 3000 rpms with the vacuum line off. approx 53 degrees with the vacuum line on the carb with no load. I even tried to readjust my carb, I had it set before for the highest vacuum on the gauge. I hooked the gauge up again, and tried to get more, but there was no more to be had. I did notice today, that when on the highway the car doesn't stall at all. When I had the Th350 in the car. When I was goin on the highway, if i was below lets say 2800 rpms, I could accelerate and watch the tach go up to approx 2800-3000 rpms then the car would accelerate. This converter in the 2004r, when I'm at 1800-1900 rpms in OD and I try to accelerate, there is no rising on the tach, the car just tries to accelerate. Chugging, choppy, then it climbs to approx 2300 or so, then its all good. I'm almost starting to think that the converter is a stock coverter, I don't know if that makes sense. I tried playing with everything I could think of today. I got the trans to shift nicely. Nice tight shifts, instead of sliding into gear like yesterday. But for the life of me, the car will not idle at all in gear, with the lockup plugged in or unplugged. It doesn't care. I've back tracked thinking I had to screw something up, but everything is where it was the day before I installed the 2004r. So I'm wondering if the best thing for me to do is call up ATI or someone and have them build me a custom converter for my set-up. But on another note. If you think, changing out the rear end gear to say a 4.10 or more, If you think that would help with the chugging I'm all for it, but that wouldn't work either, I still wouldn't be able to get the car to idle in gear. Other then the not wanting to idle in gear, and the chugging, hesitation feeling I get til the car gets above 2300, the car runs good, maybe the converter is bad altogher, it is used, who knows. How do you feel about calling up someone and getting a custom converter for my set-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 if it did it with the 350 trans too, and in every gear, it's not the trans I could putt around all day long in my 468 w/ a hugh solid roller in it, no chugging I'm still betting carb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTX Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I think you need to check the basics first. I would first replace spark plugs (cheapest) then do a compression check. If still a problem I would also bet on the carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 This was never an issue with the TH350. I purposely drove the car with the TH350 the day before. After I came home, I let her cool down. The very next morning. I removed the trans, When doin so I realized my cap and rotor need to be changed. I changed the cap and rotor, Installed the 2004r in the car, and walla now I have issues. I thought okay, maybe just maybe I might have damaged a spark plug when I removed the pass header. So I pulled each one. I cant see anything. So what the hell. I went and bought another set. The I even ran the engine in the dark to check for any plug wire issues, arching or whatever. Nothing. Althought the distributor didn't move. I rechecked timing, and checked the carb settings I had the day before. Everything is all the same. Only things different is I have a new cap & rotor, I have a 2004r trans with an unknown converter, oh and I put a ground wire from the engine block to the frame. Nothing else was changed from the day before I put the 2004r in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 I did notice today, that when on the highway the car doesn't stall at all. When I had the Th350 in the car. When I was goin on the highway, if i was below lets say 2800 rpms, I could accelerate and watch the tach go up to approx 2800-3000 rpms then the car would accelerate. This converter in the 2004r, when I'm at 1800-1900 rpms in OD and I try to accelerate, there is no rising on the tach, the car just tries to accelerate. Chugging, choppy, then it climbs to approx 2300 or so, then its all good. I'm almost starting to think that the converter is a stock coverter, You do realize that the way you have it wired, the converter will be locked all the time in OD? When you accelerate it will be locked, as in a manual transmission, no converter slip. It doesn't matter if it's a 1500 stall or a 4500 stall, when it's locked it will drive the same, ie, chug at low rpms. A custom 200-4r lockup converter with heavy duty lock up clutches is just under a grand. If you do get one made, go big, at least 3500. Bigger is better than smaller since you can lock it up and get the best of both worlds. There are only a few people that make real good ones for that trans, start with Precision Industries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 yeah I realize that. I didn't have it connected to 12v. I didn't still think it would lock up if I had it disconnected. I do remember the guy telling me when I bought it. That its been several years that the trans was run, So maybe just maybe there is an issue with the converter. Either way, I'm almost 100% sure its nothing to do with the motor. Like I said, the car ran beautifully the day before I took the TH350 out. Next with 2004r it does this. So I have to lean to the converter causing me this grief. When I compare sizes, from the 2004r to the TH350. The TH350 is a 9.5 converter. The 2004r looks as big as a stock one. But that may have nothing to do with anything. For now I can keep it running in gear at the light so long as I feather the throttle with my foot on the brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Wolf Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Well, maybe a new converter is the ticket. What is your idle set at for speed? I cant believe if it's 1000 rpms when in drive it would still clunk out? FWIW, at one time I was running a 750 edelbrock carb that I thought was in good shape. But it always wanted to die in gear too. I thought it was my cam and just lived with it for years. When I changed to a new carb (different edelbrock) the problem was instantly gone. You may have been on the edge of a problem before, and this new trans put you over it. I'm not saying to go out and buy a brand new carb, but something to think about.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlockMonte Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 cool. i'll go an borrow a buddys carb, and see how that goes. If its better. Then great, alot easier changing a carb then a converter. Thanks for the tip. The carb is new, well last august new, but that doesn't mean anything. I'll let you know what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallaby Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 It does sound like the converter or lockup is giving you fits. You have described a problem at idle, and also a problem at cruise when the engine speed is low. The aggressive cam you have makes poor low-speed torque, so the solution seems to be more rpm to make the engine happy. The other route is to make the engine happy at slower speeds. There may be a tuning issue that is making low speed performance worse than it could be. Making the engine run faster gets you past the problem, but it doesn't eliminate it. I'm just thinking out loud here, and my theory is that if you can adjust the idle down to as slow as possible and still be smooth, then the shock of putting the car in gear won't be as great and it won't try so hard to bring your engine speed down. It will also help at cruise when the engine speeds are low, as the carb might be in a transition at that point and still depending on the idle circuit to supply some of the fuel. Retraining the engine to run slower might help a lot. I tried to dig up some info on other sites and there is a lot of talk about the TV cable adjustment, but that seems to be more for complaints about shift points. It would seem that the TH350 converter will not work on the 200, even if you were willing to do without lockup, so putting your old converter in for testing isn't an option. Maybe someone can verify this...like a converter or trans shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTX Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 To see when the stall speed is just put your foot on the brake and give it the gas. If the RPM only goes to 1,600 RPM or whatever RPM then that is what your stall speed is and you know if you need a different torque converter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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