Roller or not to Roller

[snomobeelr]

So here is a dumb Question. So Is a Roller cam Benifical for the street? Will I notice it? I was all ready to get one and still am. I called Lunati and the guy said to do a custom Grind and listened to what I wanted. The price for the Cam - The more expensive lifters he said I should use as the cam should tach up to 6400 and Valve springs is $1100.00. I dont mind spending the money to do it right and once. Just want to make sure I am not going overboard. Car is on the street. But like to have fun as everyone does. Also does anyone know if the Chevy 781 heads can use the Dual Springs? He was not sure about that.. The Cam he sugested I belive he said had "

558 lift intake and exhast & 228 / 236 Duration I belive..

 

Here is the build :

TH-400

Stall ???

1973 454 block

Heads are 781 casting Oval port with the Large Valves

CAM ??? 9 to 1 compression

air gap intake

750 Demon

373 rear end

[Mike 57]

Rollers seem to have a wider power band. An added benefit is you don't have to worry about additives to protect flat tappets. you may have to have the valve guides checked for clearance. And while you are at it have the machined for positive type valve stem seals. The umbrella type may not fit inside the required spring.

[Sam (Bones)]

[72MC]

x 2

 

A full roller assembly. Now that is the life. - Dave

[TrunkMatt]

If you have the $$$ I'd say go roller. The only reason some of us don't is initial cost... it is a hell of an up-front fee. However, as a result of not going roller, we will all be rebuilding our motors sooner than a guy with a good roller setup (which some of us are ok with... it allows for more future fun!)

 

I just had my 383 built with Flat Tappets... mainly because I plan to pull it out long before my cam dies... probably in about 2 years when I am done rebuilding the original numbers matched 350 for my monte (which will indeed have full rollers). Whatever car that 383 ends up in (yet to be found), will call for a different cam etc. again... and I may move to roller then.

 

 

 

[rickc402]

Does anyone have experiance with the Edelbrock Rolling Thunder Cam for the BBC? I am am also interested to know if the EZ EFI system would accept the cam specs or if it would be too radical.

[snomobeelr]

I was thinking since I have the motor out now and still debating on cleaning up motor and new cam a rolller. I spoke to Steve at Lunati who sugjested a Custom Grind which sounded good said it would tach up to 6400. Then I was talking with My friend who thinks I should get the top end kit with Aluminum heads and cam and everything. He wants me to do the Edlbrock top end combo that is 2500.00 but it is not a Roller Cam.... The Lunati Cam, Better Lunati Roller lifters and valve springs for my heads came to 1100.00 so I am stilll debating wich to do.. Will still need a converter. More decisions now. What you guys think..

[TrunkMatt]

...I was talking with My friend who thinks I should get the top end kit with Aluminum heads and cam and everything. He wants me to do the Edlbrock top end combo that is 2500.00 but it is not a Roller Cam....

 

Step 1) Never talk to your friends about engine builds, or you'll be poor. I learned this first hand a while ago... friends love to spend your money. I think many of us agree :-). Granted, talking to a bunch of car club guys on the internet is not much better...

 

Step 2) Talk to an engine builder as a consultation & get the real insight... they usually pride themselves on setting things up correctly and don't let you spend needlessly.

 

 

My personal take (and discuss with your mechanic):

 

Tests show changing heads to aluminum (and doing nothing else) only gives you a 5 horsepower gain - because they run a little cooler. On a big-block... probably a few more - but not much... I wouldn't consider a BB high-revving enough to make that much difference.

 

Honestly, If you are doing aluminum heads you should do things to take advantage of them or you are wasting your $$$. Things like: domed pistons & higher compression. Otherwise you are just throwing heads on for show, and not go...

 

If you are not going to do a piston job to really take advantages of what the aluminum heads gives you (a chance at higher compression and better heat evac), than just stick with the cam... because the differences will be not be too noticeable outside of looks.

 

My opinion on Money better spent for a few extra horses:

 

If you really want some cheap additional horsepower (5-10) with your build that is a bit more affordable... just put on a better oil pan that has a crank-scraper and windage tray... it'll keep the oil from Roping.

 

Moroso makes a good series of Pans for a good cost (I think I paid $275 w/ scraper and windage tray)

 

Here is a pic of one for small blocks - I think you are BB so there should be a comprable one...

 

 

Here is how it looks on a motor (mine)... and you can indeed see peeking out it once it is installed (looks nice in the car)

 

 

 

 

 

Since I built small-block 383 Stroker, you'll notice I did go with aluminum heads... with a hell of a piston-job to mate. Again, I did not go roller cam in this, however... flat tappet. I found my $$$ better invested in the crank / pistons / stroke based on what I want to do with this motor. Nice street cruiser that really puts on the power when needed... but can also get 19-22mpg highway

 

Oh - and to put your price on that Edelbrock top-end kit in Perspective... I had this whole motor built by a professional builder with high quality parts and labor & dyno tests for a total of $3245. It runs close to 500 horses & pulls like a train (I built it for High-Torque so I can run my 2.73 gears).

 

You could nearly build an awesome smallblock for the price you are thinking of spending on just Edelbrock stuff. Just think about your spend for a second on those heads. Edelbrock is more of a pricey name...

 

[snomobeelr]

Thanks Guys.. I think I am have gone from motor cleanup to rebuild.. Only wanna do this once more. I had the Motor built in 1989, steel crank Balanced and all. I Changed Cams twice on it due to failure. One of my friends sugjested Advanced in Wheeling Il and I spoke to them and they sound pretty good. So I gonna stick with the 781 heads I have just have them freshened up maybe ported? They already have the larger valves.. I spoke to Steve at Lunati and think I gonna go that route with the Roller Cam. Is more expexnsive but no Break in for it. Gonna be about 1100.00 for Custom Grind Cam the good Roller Lifters and Valve Springs. I think I gonna do the Rockers Pushrods and Timing set through them as well. Keep it all one.. What do you guys think

[Mike 57]

Hold off on the pushrods until you get it together. Get the length dead on. Then give smith brothers a call good stuff lower price. I got 9 of each just in case I bend one.

[speedfreak71]

First off I don't think there is such thing as a dumb question. A big block is a sensitive creature compared to the small block. More time is taken to be sure the cam,valve train,and oiling system are spot on. The valve train is MUCH heavier and is a durability flaw to pay attention to. That's why a roller is SOOOOO nice. Everything is made to take the weight/pressure. I favor Comp Cams since they are the industry leader on new technology. PLUS There are PLENTY of people/dealers in this economy that will sell them to you at close to there cost just to keep there "special" dealer discount. I have priced the cam lifters and springs and my buddies have gotten the same Hydraulic roller set up for $800. I'm not bashing the Lunati stuff I do own and have owned plenty of there stuff and been very happy. Just custom roller stuff it comes down to $ for me. Also A few things to pay attention to would be. MOST of the time the roller requires longer valves and if you do plan to spin that 4 inch stroke crank to 6400rpm I would consider buying an aftermarket set of rods as cheap insurance. Seen plenty of broken factory rods on the street. I make it a hobby to buy things and find things as cheap as possible. So I'm a sucker for used aftermarket aluminum heads. The weight savings alone (like 70lbs) will make an ET difference. Plus they are much easier to repair. If I take my 383 out of the monte I am piecing together a 496. I have some forged pistons already I found on the net. A New cast crank is only like $250 $300 and no matter what it will make PLENTY of torque to pull my big ol' cruiser around I still run the zinc additive, its not just for cams but all metal friction issues like bearings. And X2 on the smith brothers pushrods. Make sure the oil pump is matched to the pan. If its a stock pump and pan no problem but I wouldn't recommend a bigger better pump with out a bigger better pan. Good luck and keep us posted

[680HPStroker]

Yea what speedfreak71 said. For strength and durability with a big block don't skimp on the valve train even if all you are doing is banging it on the street. Go roller and make sure you buy a cam kit that includes the matched valve springs. Folks will say you don't need titanium retainers, but thats their opinion even if I disagree as it's all about building an engine once the right way for a long life of abuse no matter what type. Your cam profile needs to be specific to your application. Most of the time when you just choose an off the shelf cam you leave power on the table that means you wasted money. I'd also invest in a good set of forged rods(4340) and pistons. I'm partial to forged cranks as well, but for a street engine a stock crank should be fine. If you go roller as was stated make sure you get a good set of hardened pushrods with the correct length for your application. There are lots of variables to consider building a first quality engine. I'm an overkill guy. I'd rather wait until I can afford the best parts rather than skimp and use inferior stuff just to get a car on the road only to have it have issues down the road at the most inopportune time. Good luck to you and remember it's a labor of love, not a popularity contest. It's for you and no one else.

[CrazyDavey]

just to add a bit to what Mike, Steve and Greg has already told you is that the valve train geometry on a BBC is very important. It's not as easy as a small block due to the canted valve set up. I also use the Smith Bros pushrods (3/8" should be plenty for your app) and order those after you have things back together so you can get the correct length. Make sure the rocker tips are hitting the top of the stems as square as possible all the way through the lobe rotation.

 

Aluminum heads can be worth a ton, half the weight of the iron heads, run cooler, better runner and port designs, less prone to detonation and will allow more timing. A professional porting job on iron heads can get expensive so think that out.

 

Be careful of what lifters Lunati is trying to sell you, they basically have 3 levels that are made by Morel. Roller lifters are the heart of reliability so don't go economuy there, pay the extra dollars and get the second level which Morel calls the Sportsman lifters. The first level lifter uses a smaller roller wheel and has a cast body and they do not like it if you get into some higher lift cam profiles. The Sportsman lifter uses a larger wheel and has a forged body, much stonger.

 

my 2 cents....

[snomobeelr]

Thanks alot guys. I was going with Lunati since I saw them referred to here alot. The guy I spoke to said to get the better Lifters, said they are quite a bit more 600.00 smackers but his opinion was I should get those. Any other Cam companies that do customer Grinds that I should look at? If I do go with an Aluminum head what type? My friend sugjested the Edlbrock but that was a top end kit and not a roller cam. With the heads it will come down to how much to go through and port vs how much a pair of heads would be. I think I had the heads ported/Polished when the motor was done. But that was so long ago (1989) I dont remember..

 

Thanks everyone

[CrazyDavey]

Chris Straub (Straub Techonolgies) is one of the best custom cam guys out there....you can get those lifters cheaper than $600.....as far as heads...I think generally right now Brodix and AFR are considered the best out of the box heads out there...Edelbrocks are okay but require some work to make them good....JMO

[Mike 57]

Chris did my cam and it works pretty good! Mine is a solid roller, Davey runs a hydraulic roller from Chris and you can see his results are quit good also. Give Chris a call don't expect him to give you a bunch of details on lobe design, that is not his style. I am sure he can help you out with getting the roller lifters at a better price.

 

If you are contemplating a head change make that decision before going with a custom grind cam. The head flow will be a determining factor in cam grind. I don't think i have ever read what your goals are for your Monte. AFR and Brodix are two of the top conventional heads available. There are others, some equal to them some not so much. I don't think that I would go with an Eddy top end system but if you want a hot street motor eddy's will do a good job for you at a little less cost. Steve Levante has my 290cc eddys and has gone 11.6s I believe with 3.31 gears and I think a 2500 stall converter. So if hot street is your goal that would be a way to go.

You have to consider your goals for the car are. If you plan to go to the track and want to run without a roll bar a setup like Steve's or cast iron heads are the way to go. If you want to put a roll bar in it spend the money for the AFRs or other top line heads, put a roll bar in, get your belts that you have to recertify every two years. That's what I did because the wife and I have more fun at the track than a show field.

You will never feel the difference in a 10.5 or a 11.6 motor on the street, you just can't hook it up. As a matter of fact the 11.6 motor will be snappier on the street.

 

I hope this helps in you planning.

[snomobeelr]

I want it to have it all : ) . But know I cant. Honestly I want a fast street car that will pin you to the seat. Able to drive all the time and just plain have fun with. Would love to do low 11's but dont want a roll bar.

I actually rather have a roller cam than the Aluminum heads. I already have the 781's with larger Valves. I would like the power band to be from 1800 to 6400. Before I pulled the motor and started on the car she would tach out at 5800 and seemed like I should have had more.

So I what I want, my goal is a streetable car low 11's with a power band to be from 1800 to 6400. I would like 1 7/8 headers but usally only see 1 3/4 or 2 inch out there for full length. Would 2 1/2 or 3 inch exhause be better. I am going to go with the Torch-Tech or the Pypes not sure wich yet. Is that possiable with with a 454 roller cam and 781 heads and an RPM air gap intake and a 3.73 rear end?

[Dans '70 Z20]

If you are looking for 1 7/8" headers look into a set of Sanderson's. They will let you know what fits the Monte and have many styles available in 1 7/8" from blockhugger to full length.. They coat them inside and out and do not use header gaskets.

 

Here is the linky: Sanderson Headers

[snomobeelr]

Thanks, how long have you had the Sanderson's ? I pulled the heads off today and the Pistons are "L2399.030" when I google them they come up as TRW or Sealed Power Forged and block is 0.30 over.

[Machtuck]

Mike and Davey are correct, watch the geometry. Bbc valve train is heavy. Lots of opinions ( all are good). Here is mine:

 

It sounds like you would like to drive this car on the street and roast the tires every now and again. Do you live near a track? How far?

Does the existing shortblock have flat top pistons? If so, your compression is probably in and around 8.2 to 1 rather than 9 to 1 ( 781 head is probably 119 cc, .039 gasket and .024 in the cyl).

It sounds like you are not on a shoestring but more like a moderate budget. If you are going to do a complete rebuild, might i suggest going the 496 route. There are some decent stroker kits going for $1300 balanced. Scat or eagle ( both chinese) but a better part of China!

I would keep the 781's, bowl blend add 2.19/ 1.88 11/32 back cut stainless valves, knock off the extra slag only. Get a 3 angle. Nevermind the titanium retainers, the hyd profile you are going to use will not warrant it. Do use a moly retainer however.

Lunati is a good cam company, i have used a few of them with desired results. Look at competition products. They carry a good selection of howards hyd roller grinds with the sportsman morel lifter. They are currently $ 561, cam and lifters. They will grind it on whatever lsa you request at no charge. I would go 108-110 personally.

If you are going to stay with 454, go with 235 to low 240's duration at .050 if going 496, go mid 240's to low 250's at .050 ( i personally like sing pattern grinds only because i have been using them for years and there is lots of evidence that indicate if your exhaust is adequate, dual pattern cams may not be needed for the exh scavenging.

The edelbrock performer rpm is an excellent intake. If you have the $$$$ and go with 496, use holley 950 hp.

What size tire do you have? 3:73 stinks on the street, especially if you have to drive the car any distance.

The above rotating assy generally gives a compression of 10.25 ( i think the pistons are around the - 20cc dome) will do ok on 92.

Please note that this is my opinion as i respect the talents and knowledge of the the other members.

It sounds like you would like to do this only once and just enjoy it. Good for you.

Remember, you will always want more, ask me how i know. I have built many bbc's and the 496 is very formidable, a perfect match for our heavy montes. Save the money from the almn heads and put it into the 496 rotating assy. I promise you will not be sorry..

There will be some grinding of the block and and a stroker oil pan will be in order.

 

This engine with a 3:08 gear, 25-2800 converter, 27 inch tire, 2 inch headers, and 2.5 inch exh with dynomax or equivalent will easily deliver low 12 sec and around the 112 mph.

Lose the 3:73 gear and have fun!!!

[Machtuck]

Also, always always, use the recommended springs that the cam company suggests. Spend the nominal $ and have your machinist set up the springs on the heads. ( installed height for proper seat and open pressures and spring rate).

[Mike 57]

Strokers are nice!

[680HPStroker]

Strokers rock! Once you have been stroked you will never go back to stock size.

[snomobeelr]

Fist of all I do appreciate everyone's opinion and input and I want to thank everyone. I am restoring the car and the project snowballed as you all know how that happens. My original intent with the Motor was to just change the intake to an RMP air gap and clean up the motor, paint it and go back in. But since the motor is out and it was rebuilt so long ago 1989/1990 I am thinking I should have a machine shop go through the bottom end. If I do that of course I should get a new cam lifters heads cleaned up.

I thought the Roller Cam is much better than a flat tappet so I want a Roller. But no facts, that is just what I thought. My friends said " why do all that and just change the cam it will be the same build ?". Said to use plastigauge to check the main bearings and if all good instead of spending the money on the machine shop do a top end kit and I would have about 540 HP for the a bit more money.

The snow ball is turning into an Avalanche ; ) . The car will be driven no trailer Queen. And I do like to hammer it all the time. I would like a high 11or low 12 car and would like 500-550 hp if that possible. With just changing the cam and the intake I assume that won’t happen? If I do a stoker I am paying for the parts and to have it machined. If I I have it gone through and get aluminum heads I am paying for the heads. So I guess my question is can The car get to 500-550 hp with just the cam change and some work on the 781 heasd which already have the larger valves. But may need new valves as it appears the rockrs may have worn the tip of the valve. I also pulled the heads because I couldn’t remember what pistons I had. Turns out there TRW - L2399 0.30.

So my main question is :Do I need the to stroker the motor and get roller cam to get to 500-550 HP? Do I need to get Aluminum Heads and Roller cam to get to 500-550 HP. Can I just have the the bottom end checked change the cam and get to500-550 HP? I also noticed alot of opinions on heads and was wondering if I do go that route has anyone used Pro Comp Heads? Or what heads should I get if I go that route? Or If I go stroker is there a certian Piston balancer/Flywheel I will need to get? Can I do a stroker on a 2 bolt main block? Agian thank you all for your insite and assistance.

 

Anyone know this guy out of Michigan who sells pro comp heads on ebay?

1fastzmadman

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160687460513

 

** Currently ***

73 454 Block

2bolt main

steel crank

trw? L2399 0.30 pistons

781 heads with larger valves

RPM Air Gap Intake

TH - 400

3.73 Rear end

[CrazyDavey]

Hey Alan, first on the ProComp's nobody I know has used those without going through them. At first they had a lot of casting problems with those but the newer ones seem to have gotten better. It's the machining that usually falls short so guys buy them and then go in a clean them up. On the performance forums right now the best out of the box heads are generally AFR and Brodix with the Eddy's maybe third. There are some other choices out there but those are the three that most guys are using.

 

No you do not need aluminum heads, a roller cam and a stroker to get 550hp but you have to push the motor a little more to get it. Also for what you're doing a 2 bolt main block is fine, if the rotating assembly is up to it it will handle 700hp no problem.

 

So the main decision is if you go into the bottom end or not. What you have now might be okay but remember if you start adding power that changes the game. If you decide to go through the bottom end then IMO the biggest bang for you buck would be a 1/4" stroker, a kit would give you crank, rods, pistons, rings and bearings. You would have fresh stuff you can lay into with relative peace of mind. You can also get these kits pre-balanced. The added cubic inches would allow you to get to your hp goal without having to use more radical pieces. As far as aluminum heads and a roller cam those are money issues, if you have the funds there is no down side to them, if funds are a concern then clean up the iron heads and spec a good flat tappet cam..JMO...