Andreas Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Originally Posted By: RichG In 43 years, not ONE legitimate,, documented LS-6, 4 speed 454, or convertible has EVER surfaced. If one or four or ten existed, it would have surfaced by now. Whoever got it new would have known how unique it was and would have at least passed on the story when it changed hands. There are tons of "my brothers barbers next door neighbor had one" or "I remember sitting in one on the showroom floor" story's but not ONE real, documented car yet. 43 years and still waiting....... Just my opinion, I could be wrong... I'm with you Rich. I'd love to see that a real LS6, 454 4-speed or convertible was built in the factory but it seems doubtful to me for the reasons you stated. I am getting about 3-4 of these stories about "super-rare" Montes per year. When I ask for paperwork to back up claims, they all fell apart so far.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hello, Mike here, first post but I've been around for a while. My present gold/no vinyl top 70 is the third 1970 Monte I've owned. First was light green 350 2bbl, bought in 71 it didn't keep long. Next, in 76, was dark green/vinyl loaded up, even had the little light indicators on the front fenders and rear seat shelf and rear window defog, bench seat, gage package and 402 engine. I screwed in a 70 Vette 454 390hp Appliance headers and let the wife drive it to work for 5 years, until the WI winters got the best of it. It was a great car, very quick. Used it to tow my Chevelle drag car with a open trailer. Once @ a traffic light a guy in a 307 Camaro had a hard time pulling us, kept looking over and we were still next to him laughing our butts off. Present unit was built in Van Nyes, born a 350/300/T-350/2.73 12 bolt. Boring so I created my own 4 speed 454, all nos parts, only non stock items are the Hurst shifter, Super T-10 and solid Jegs upper control arms, no wheel hop here. I always accepted the 'no 4 speed SS Monte's' until today. Was talking to a good friend who back in the day worked @ Dale Chevrolet in Waukesha WI. Harold Worman is his name, he sold cars and was in charge of performance parts. We were discussing my car and he mentioned that there was a red/black vinyl/black interior SS 4 speed that came through Dale Chevrolet. He didn't recall the engine spec but remembered the car. I wouldn't believe the story from any one else, but I know this guy is the genuine article from the era and he doesn't have alzhiemers yet. http://s767.photobucket.com/user/mhohnstein/library/1970%20monte%20carlo?sort=3&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 All that needs to happen is for it to surface with a build sheet or Canadian Documentation package....then, and only then, I'll believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 lots of stories, no evidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Only thing not mentioned is just maybe what ever stick montes 'might' have been constructed, could have wound up wrapped around a pole back in the day, cut up and made into a race car, or stolen and disassembled. We'll never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141388 Post 9 third paragraph, engine spec info is appropriate for 335/390 hp 427 and 454 69 and 70 model years, as well as 69 396. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I remember Dale Chevy from back then. They did have a lot of hot cars on their lot. I was in Milwaukee then and friends and I would make the rounds of the dealers 2-3 times a month to see what was on the lots. Was this supposed to be a new or used car back when he saw it? Maybe there was one or maybe he remembers a 400 4 speed. Until someone has paperwork, it's all just 44 year old memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Just because no one has one TODAY that's into the hobby, doesn't mean there wasn't any produced. Harold Worman know's the difference between a 402 and 454, remember he ran the high performance parts department, and he drag raced. That normally means a guy is a little more tuned up mechanically than the average joe. It matter's little to me if any of you guys believe what I heard with my ears. I've seen 400 small blocks and 402 rat motor 4 speed Monte's, maybe they never built those either, even though I saw those examples @ the dealer back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam (Bones) Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 but there are documented examples of 402 and 400's here on this site, and a 1971 402/4 speed with SS rear trim but it's not a SS, and we all wish it could be proven, and any of GM documentation says none were built either there supposedly a SS454/4 speed here in Detroit too, baby blue with a white top, I keep asking to take me to it so I can document it, but it is still all just talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyDavey Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 what I remember about my life in 1970 and what actually happened probably has some divide in it by now (actually this has already been tested )...it's more likely it was a dealer conversion not an actual COPO car. It was a very common event at some of the more high performance dealerships. In SoCal there were several dealerships doing things like this (Dana, Bear Chev, etc) ..... I bought a special order black '72 Monte from the original owner that was a documented 4 speed dealer conversion...he ordered the car and paid the dealer to make the change before he took delivery....it was very cheap to do back then, a new Muncie in the crate was about $200...it was a bench seat car so it didn't even need all the console stuff either...everything they needed was already in the parts department Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Just because no one has one TODAY that's into the hobby, doesn't mean there wasn't any produced. Harold Worman know's the difference between a 402 and 454, remember he ran the high performance parts department, and he drag raced. That normally means a guy is a little more tuned up mechanically than the average joe. It matter's little to me if any of you guys believe what I heard with my ears. I've seen 400 small blocks and 402 rat motor 4 speed Monte's, maybe they never built those either, even though I saw those examples @ the dealer back in the day. I'm not questioning what you heard with your ears and I believe he knows the difference. I had a 70 with a 400 small block. it had buckets but no console. When I showed it back in the 80s a lot of people didn't believe it was factory. I have a 70 SS with a bench seat. I have the build sheet. Same thing, doesn't have buckets so it can't be an SS. Many different things were made back then, sometimes by accident when the wrong parts came down the line. These have been documented, not just remembered. There is a difference. This fall I saw a 70 Monte at the Greenfield Ave show. It looked like a barn find that someone had started to restore. It had SS trim and the right parts for an SS, air tank, big block steering shaft, etc. It also had a 4 speed with the correct Monte Console. I went back to that car 5 times but no one was there. I hope to see it again this year at a show and talk to the owner about it. Did I see it? Yes I did. Does this mean the factory made it AND THERE IS DOCUMENTATION? No, it's what I saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I can live with a dealer conversion, Dale did a lot of interesting things back then. A guy I worked with @ American Can in 70 bought a black Nova SS from them, had a 454, factory tach, was black on black, think he crashed it, imagine that. Wonderful times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72jrfan88 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Originally Posted By: Mr. Hipster Just because no one has one TODAY that's into the hobby, doesn't mean there wasn't any produced. Harold Worman know's the difference between a 402 and 454, remember he ran the high performance parts department, and he drag raced. That normally means a guy is a little more tuned up mechanically than the average joe. It matter's little to me if any of you guys believe what I heard with my ears. I've seen 400 small blocks and 402 rat motor 4 speed Monte's, maybe they never built those either, even though I saw those examples @ the dealer back in the day. I'm not questioning what you heard with your ears and I believe he knows the difference. I had a 70 with a 400 small block. it had buckets but no console. When I showed it back in the 80s a lot of people didn't believe it was factory. I have a 70 SS with a bench seat. I have the build sheet. Same thing, doesn't have buckets so it can't be an SS. Many different things were made back then, sometimes by accident when the wrong parts came down the line. These have been documented, not just remembered. There is a difference. This fall I saw a 70 Monte at the Greenfield Ave show. It looked like a barn find that someone had started to restore. It had SS trim and the right parts for an SS, air tank, big block steering shaft, etc. It also had a 4 speed with the correct Monte Console. I went back to that car 5 times but no one was there. I hope to see it again this year at a show and talk to the owner about it. Did I see it? Yes I did. Does this mean the factory made it AND THERE IS DOCUMENTATION? No, it's what I saw. Wow! Maybe this year I will be able to meet you up there to check out some montes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hope we can work something out this year. I plan on the swap meet on Feb 23. http://www.wiscollectorcar.com/calendar/event/2376-greater-milwaukee-area-indoor-winter-swap-meet I also go to Jefferson spring and fall, Iola, and lots of shows around Racine, Milwaukee, and Waukesha during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Maybe but I've got mine listed for 18k @ cars-on-line, a lot of chatter but no money yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tid Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Steve, sorry to hijack the thread. Is the swap on the 23rd well attended by sellers? Any guess at the number of spots? I'm just north of you in Oak Creek and don't want to make the drive unless it's a decent swap. Thanks and hope all is well. Jeff Hope we can work something out this year. I plan on the swap meet on Feb 23. http://www.wiscollectorcar.com/calendar/event/2376-greater-milwaukee-area-indoor-winter-swap-meet I also go to Jefferson spring and fall, Iola, and lots of shows around Racine, Milwaukee, and Waukesha during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 PM sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69LM1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I own a 70 Monte 402/4Speed (w/ build sheet). Some of these cars could have been mistaken as SS cars with the BB. I also own a 1970 Camaro Z28 "COPO" which many said did not exist. That one also has a build sheet. What makes it a COPO is not the engine, but the tall spoiler. There is a whole story around SCCA racing that made the 70 Z Copo a reality. There are now several documented 70 Z COPO's. Point being, that the COPO program was not really a HiPo program, just a mechanism to build non standard cars. Every taxi from back in the day was a "copo" car (special paint scheme), many utility trucks were "copo" cars (special brakes). Your friends Monte's could have been COPO's, but just a fleet order, not necessarily a HiPo COPO. Pics of my Monte in this thread: http://www.fgmcc.com/ubbthreads/ubbthrea...true#Post386167 Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostnFound Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Nice clean example of a 70...and a great colour too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Good info. I assume your storage facility is air conditioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyMonte Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I've seen GM build many so called prototypes some were just ideas they followed through with never intended to go into production. I remember a few years ago Barrett Jackson had a run of these cars all sold with no titles one was a 1996 full size SS with a 502 engine, maybe they snuck a few Montes out the same way back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyMonte Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 A neighbor of mine has a late model Tahoe painted Victory red it was not a regular production color, he bought it used and just thinks its an average garden variety Tahoe. I know some fleet orders have many choices not offered to the public, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montefrazer Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I've seen GM build many so called prototypes some were just ideas they followed through with never intended to go into production. I remember a few years ago Barrett Jackson had a run of these cars all sold with no titles one was a 1996 full size SS with a 502 engine, maybe they snuck a few Montes out the same way back then. Anything is possible and we can play what if forever. The only sure thing is none have been found, with proof, in 44 years so the odds are none ever will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mau Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 ...Point being, that the COPO program was not really a HiPo program, just a mechanism to build non standard cars. Every taxi from back in the day was a "copo" car (special paint scheme), many utility trucks were "copo" cars (special brakes). Your friends Monte's could have been COPO's, but just a fleet order, not necessarily a HiPo COPO. Good point. When the "Godfather of the GTO" Jim Wangers had a Chevrolet dealership in the early '70s, he used the COPO program to order a fleet of black '72 Vegas which he turned into special dealership editions. Black wasn't included in the [regular] color palette for Chevrolet passenger cars in '72, but Mr. Wangers didn't want to just go for close by getting them in Midnight Bronze (even though that's a beautiful color, too). He wanted black, so he went COPO. Originally Posted By: montefrazer Anything is possible and we can play what if forever. The only sure thing is none have been found, with proof, in 44 years so the odds are none ever will. I agree, Steve. This is, however, something of an "X-File" I'd love to see re-opened again someday for good reason. The truth is out there. LOL Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hipster Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Well, I've had a lot of calls about my 70ss clone 4sp car. Tonite talked to a fellow from northern WI who says he knows a guy (gave me his name) who bought a SS 4sp car new AND still owns it. I sent him a link to the forum, we will see if it bears fruit, as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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