Joselk1 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Thinking of installing an Air Gap intake on my 454 and still using the Quadrajet. Anyone know if the stock air cleaner will clear the stock hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joselk1 Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 Now I’ve about talked myself out of it. I have the intake off to clean and paint so it’s a perfect time for a day2 mod. pros/ cons …thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 My car originally came with an Air-Gap manifold and a K&N open element air cleaner. No clearance issues at all. 'Engine Masters' just did an intake manifold comparison last week, that's their top rated manifold, FWIW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joselk1 Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 What do you have on it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC1of80 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Air gap rpm, 1 in spacer 950 hp Holley and 70s Camaro dual snorkel air cleaner under the hood. You will have no issues. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC1of80 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 If all you are doing is changing the intake and not the cam also, I would put the stock one back on. You will not benefit from the air gap intake and feel you wasted your money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 29 minutes ago, Joselk1 said: What do you have on it now. I changed the engine from the oval port head 402 (with edelbrock manifold) to a 454 LS6, which has rectangle port heads. That one currently has the stock GM high-rise aluminum dual plane intake on it, with a Holley Terminator Stealth EFI setup (looks like a Holley 4 bbl carb, but is EFI) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joselk1 Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 40 minutes ago, MC1of80 said: Air gap rpm, 1 in spacer 950 hp Holley and 70s Camaro dual snorkel air cleaner under the hood. You will have no issues. Nice …painting the intake is a thought 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joselk1 Posted June 22, 2023 Author Share Posted June 22, 2023 Keeping it stock….cleaned up intake today and it’s the date code correct intake. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70white402 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 On 6/20/2023 at 9:52 PM, MC1of80 said: Air gap rpm, 1 in spacer 950 hp Holley and 70s Camaro dual snorkel air cleaner under the hood. You will have no issues. Tom, is that an original air cleaner or repo? I need to put an air cleaner on my Holley as the original one won’t fit it as there was the quadrajet on the 402. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC1of80 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Jeff, its a repro of the 70-72 big block Camaro factory air cleaner assy. I purchased it when they first started reproducing them. It is specifically made to fit the Holley carb. It had provisions for the float boal adjusting nuts/screws that the original for our cars does not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70Meangreen Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 On 6/20/2023 at 7:01 PM, jft69z said: I changed the engine from the oval port head 402 (with edelbrock manifold) to a 454 LS6, which has rectangle port heads. That one currently has the stock GM high-rise aluminum dual plane intake on it, with a Holley Terminator Stealth EFI setup (looks like a Holley 4 bbl carb, but is EFI) I’m currently setting up the Holley Stealth Terminator on my 454. Trying to figure out a few details…What specifically did you use for your throttle cable bracket, throttle cable, and air cleaner? Trying to get it right the first time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 On 8/21/2023 at 10:53 PM, 70Meangreen said: I’m currently setting up the Holley Stealth Terminator on my 454. Trying to figure out a few details…What specifically did you use for your throttle cable bracket, throttle cable, and air cleaner? Trying to get it right the first time! I'll get you pics and part numbers in the morning. Here goes, this could get lengthy, lol. - For the throttle bracket, I used the one that came with the Stealth Terminator kit. I got the kit 'with transmission control', so it included a bracket, Holley part number: 20-151. Check to see if it's in your kit, if not, it should be available from the usual sources. My trans has electronic control, so I don't need the kick down cable bracket. If you have a T-400 trans (as mine originally did), the kickdown switch is inside, at the accelerator pedal. If someone needed it though, use bracket 20-150. - For the throttle cable, I used a genuine GM cable I got from my dealer. It was for Chevelle, Camaro, etc, "with Special High Performance", which meant it had a Holley carb. It has since been discontinued, but it looks to be available now thru the aftermarket (and originals thru other sellers). The GM number was: 336969 and is 21 inches long. Here are a couple examples: https://www.thepartsplaceinc.com/product/1972/1972-chevrolet-chevelle-malibu-throttle-cable-for-big-block-with-special-high-performance-holley-carburetor-overall-length-21-gm-336969/59736 https://www.oerparts.com/product/336969.html https://www.ebay.com/itm/322540899792 Camaro Central has this listed as a replacement too: https://www.camarocentral.com/1970_1973_Camaro_Accelerator_Throttle_Cable_p/acl-117b.htm - For the air cleaner, I use the same one on both my Monte and Camaro with no clearance issues, which includes a 4" tall filter element. AMD Lid W-244: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/amd-w-244 K & N base plate. They make ones with a different drop, this works on both my cars: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/knn-85-3549 Air Filter element: Fram CA 3492, or a NAPA Gold 2096 will work great. Also, I found that the linkage attachment point on the EFI throttle body of the Stealth T.B. (throttle body) has a shorter pivot point vs. an actual carb. That, combined with the 1:1 action of the primary & secondary throttle plates (they both open equally, at the same time, as opposed to a progressive operation as a carb does) makes for a rather abrupt opening sometimes. The springs on the TB itself are a bit heavy too, which doesn't help. Holley makes an EFI throttle linkage extension, part number 20-16 that moves the lever point up higher. I did it on my Z/28, but haven't done it yet on the Monte. I did modify the TB linkage, and the extension arm a bit to make it all fit under the air cleaner lid. I think I drilled another hole, a little lower than the top one though, for air cleaner clearance. I also used button head bolts to attach extension arm for cleaner look, but you can probably use the hardware they include with the part. I think I drilled another hole, a little lower than the top one though. (Some of that extra work may not even be necessary if just using the ball socket mount for the throttle cable, but the Camaro uses a mechanical linkage and needed the extra clearance for attachment. Guess I'll see how that works when I add it to the Monte. In fact, I'll order an extension today from Amazon and see how it works out. It'll be here tomorrow). Here's the part: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sne-20-16 https://www.amazon.com/20-16-Sniper-Throttle-Extension-Control/dp/B0B8827HPN Pics of all this are below. If you need more info, just ask. Holley Throttle cable brackets (from EFI installation manual): The current setup on my Monte with GM 336969 cable and Holley 20-151 bracket: Current setup on Z/28, with relocated linkage pivot point using Holley 20-16 extension: Linkage part I removed for clearance on Z/28 (this is the Monte T.B., may need to do it when I add extender to this car): Mods to Z/28 Throttle Body: 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montemedic Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 Great job and info Joe. Thank you for sharing it !! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70Meangreen Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Wow Joe that is fantastic and way more than I expected, and very much appreciated!! Thank you!! With all of that great information I have some questions…. This might be lengthy too! I didn’t get the throttle bracket in my kit, doesn’t come with. I need the 20-151 as I’m running an 80E. The round grommet on the throttle cable fits the square hole on the bracket? Had to ask… - Couldn’t help but notice the PCV tube going to the back of the throttle body, is that something that you made or purchased? - Does your breather on the right side connect to the air cleaner? If so what did you use? - The carb base gasket looks like an upgrade compared to the one that came with the kit. What did you use? - How did you connect the brake booster hose to the high rise intake? It’s a tight fit for a fitting on mine. - Are you running Hyperspark on your set up? If so where did you mount it? - Just curious where did you put the X-MAX ECU and did you run all of the power and grounds directly to the battery? - What did you use as far as a battery. Side post, dual post? - Mega fuse set up ? - What did you use for the fuel lines that go up to the throttle body? - What set up did you use for a fuel filter? Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me, as you know, it’s very time consuming to figure all of this out doing it the first time. I don’t usually give compliments but I have to say your engine bay looks amazing… just saying! -Joe 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 11 hours ago, 70Meangreen said: Wow Joe that is fantastic and way more than I expected, and very much appreciated!! Thank you!! With all of that great information I have some questions…. This might be lengthy too! I didn’t get the throttle bracket in my kit, doesn’t come with. I need the 20-151 as I’m running an 80E. The round grommet on the throttle cable fits the square hole on the bracket? Had to ask… ...Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me, as you know, it’s very time consuming to figure all of this out doing it the first time. I don’t usually give compliments but I have to say your engine bay looks amazing… just saying! -Joe Thank you for the compliments, and yes, it takes countless hours of research, engineering, fabrication, trial & error, swearing, and re-doing things sometimes to get this stuff all working. Oh, and fists full of hundred dollar bills too.... I edited your post a little to make it easier to reply. I'll get some pics in the morning, but a lot of the build is documented in the post below. Granted, there's a lot of side tracks that happened in that post, but a most of the build is in there. https://www.firstgenmc.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19368-new-guy-here/#comments You said 4L80E' for a trans? I have the 4L85E in this Monte, so that's why I ended up with the EFI I got, to control the trans. I didn't want to add yet another module to control the trans, and the Holley program actually controls it pretty well right out of the box. I did a few little things in the tune for it, but it works really good. Added benefit of the Dominator ECM, is it lets you add a second O2 sensor into the control loop, not just for indication as some of their less powerful ECM's. The single hole throttle bracket works perfect in my case with the GM accelerator cable. It slides right in from the side. I don't know if that bracket came in my Z/28 setup (I got that a couple years later). I looked in my box of parts and didn't see one, which is kind of crappy if they're not included now. I'm certain the one on the Monte came with the EFI though. EDIT: Do you have a Terminator X setup? If so, that's entirely different than the kit I have. That may be why yours didn't include the throttle bracket? Looking at the online instruction manual for yours didn't show a parts list, like my system instructions have. Mine also uses the Dominator ECM: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_efi/terminator_stealth/terminator_stealth_transmission_control_kits/parts/550-445 I'll get you some part numbers for the fuel tank and filter tomorrow (done, added today), and pics of the vacuum fitting for the brakes. Here's some answers for now: - Couldn’t help but notice the PCV tube going to the back of the throttle body, is that something that you made or purchased? I made it out of 3/8" plastic fuel line. Heated it up and bent it to the shape I wanted - Does your breather on the right side connect to the air cleaner? If so what did you use? No, just a breather on the passenger side valve cover. The PCV pulls in on the driver side - The carb base gasket looks like an upgrade compared to the one that came with the kit. What did you use? It's a Holley gasket. Same as the one that come with my EFI kit. - How did you connect the brake booster hose to the high rise intake? It’s a tight fit for a fitting on mine. I made it out of Stainless tubing and a modified Swagelok fitting, to feed the HVAC vacuum source.. I also have a Leeds Vacuum pump buried under the left fender. That's Tee'd in with check valves, to isolate the engine vacuum from the pump vacuum. In the Z/28, I just used the Leeds pump. - Are you running Hyperspark on your set up? If so where did you mount it? Initially, I used the Holley/MSD dual sync distributor. Those are failure prone, so I rewired the system, and now use a MSD Small Cap HEI distributor. I have the EFI control the timing, plus have a 'MSD EFI Ignition' CD Spark box, also buried under the left fender - Just curious where did you put the X-MAX ECU and did you run all of the power and grounds directly to the battery? I put the Dominator ECM (because it has trans control) under the dash, above the glove box. I made custom brackets and welded them on to the underside of the cowl. Made sure to isolate it from ground as they intended as well. I wired it up according to the instructions, if it says go directly to battery, do it. I did add extra fuses along the way. - What did you use as far as a battery. Side post, dual post? AC Delco Professional, side post. 800CCA, 78VPG. GM part number 88861747 - Mega fuse set up ? Yes, all part of the American Autowire harness I installed - What did you use for the fuel lines that go up to the throttle body? I fabricated the entire fuel system from scratch. Used 3/8" Cu/Ni feed and return lines to tank, Aeromotive 10 micron filter mounted to the right rear frame rail, Aeromotive fuel tank with fuel pump, and made a 3/8" stainless feed and 1/4" vacuum signal lines to go from the Holley fuel pressure regulator that's mounted below the water pump, to the throttle body. Most of the fuel system is plumbed with AN fittings as I have the tooling & correct dies to form the hard lines with the 37 degree flare. - What set up did you use for a fuel filter? Aeromotive 10 micron filter, with -6 AN fittings. Part number: 12347 Aeromotive Fuel Tank: Part number 18108. Stealth Gen 2, 71-72 Monte Carlo. *** They may have a different number for a 1970 *** Holley fuel pressure regulator: Part number 12-880. Adjustable, bypass w/idle , return style, 4-65 psi 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragCat Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 8 hours ago, jft69z said: I edited your post a little to make it easier to reply. I'll get some pics in the morning, but a lot of the build is documented in the post below. Granted, there's a lot of side tracks that happened in that post, but a most of the build is in there. https://www.firstgenmc.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19368-new-guy-here/#comments The info in that thread alone is worth the membership dues 😁 just saying. Good thing Joe hadn't retired yet so he had plenty of time to document the build 🤣 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Joe, Here's the vacuum fitting I made for the power brakes. Drilled a hole in the side of the Swagelok fitting & silver soldered a piece of 1/4" stainless tube for the HVAC controls. You can also see the adapter fitting I added to the rear fuel inlet, to add a provision for a fuel pressure gauge (helps when setting the regulator), and also a place to release pressure if working on it. Also, to add the ECM power to the battery in a somewhat clean fashion, I used the 'Stinger Side Mount Post extenders'. Available from Amazon, ebay, etc. In fact, I ordered an extra set from ebay this morning to keep in stock. (At some point, I'll create a new post for your questions & move this stuff over to it). ** Installed the throttle linkage extender on the Monte. Needed a few adjustments, but that stuff is added to the Monte build link above. Stinger Battery Post Extender 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70Meangreen Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 You are absolutely right Joe, there are fistfuls of hundred dollar bills, countless hours of doing research, engineering, fabrication, and doing things over again, and again, just to make it all right. I just have to say thank you again Joe for documenting your project, which helps me and others with similar projects. Anyone who is doing any sort of restoration or a frame off restoration knows that this is not a task for the weak. You must be driven, dedicated and passionate to take on a project of this magnitude. Oh, and of course the fistful of hundred dollar bills…Lol!! I haven’t had time to read all of your posts for your build, but I will definitely make time to do that. Also, Mark is 100% right, the membership dues alone are worth the information that you have posted in this thread. Answers to your questions, and some additional questions: -Yes I have the Holley Terminator X Max which controls the 4L80E. The throttle cable bracket is not included in this kit. Another $30. -I purchased the G-Force crossmember for the 4L80E but that didn’t work out. I had issues with way too much flex in that crossmember which was causing the frame to flex. Not good at all! I did call G-Force and they told me that it is intended for an A-body that has a boxed frame such as a convertible. Not stated when I purchased it. They did give me the option to return it. I’ve decided at this point to use the factory crossmember and modify it. Can you elaborate a little bit more on your re-engineering of the stock crossmember? The stock crossmember is rubber mounted. Did you eliminate the mounts and bolt directly to the frame? Did you keep the crossmember facing the same direction as factory or did you flip it around? Any details will be helpful. - Which breather did you use on the right side of the engine and do you have any issues with oil seepage? -Where did you purchase your fuel/transmission lines from? Did they sell them in long lengths? -I noticed you don’t run the factory vacuum reservoir for the HVAC. Does your vacuum pump substitute the reservoir? Much appreciated, -Joe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 On 8/23/2023 at 11:12 AM, jft69z said: Joe, Here's the vacuum fitting I made for the power brakes. Drilled a hole in the side of the Swagelok fitting & silver soldered a piece of 1/4" stainless tube for the HVAC controls. You can also see the adapter fitting I added to the rear fuel inlet, to add a provision for a fuel pressure gauge (helps when setting the regulator), and also a place to release pressure if working on it. Also, to add the ECM power to the battery in a somewhat clean fashion, I used the 'Stinger Side Mount Post extenders'. Available from Amazon, ebay, etc. In fact, I ordered an extra set from ebay this morning to keep in stock. (At some point, I'll create a new post for your questions & move this stuff over to it). ** Installed the throttle linkage extender on the Monte. Needed a few adjustments, but that stuff is added to the Monte build link above. Stinger Battery Post Extender Swage lok On 8/23/2023 at 11:12 AM, jft69z said: Joe, Here's the vacuum fitting I made for the power brakes. Drilled a hole in the side of the Swagelok fitting & silver soldered a piece of 1/4" stainless tube for the HVAC controls. You can also see the adapter fitting I added to the rear fuel inlet, to add a provision for a fuel pressure gauge (helps when setting the regulator), and also a place to release pressure if working on it. Also, to add the ECM power to the battery in a somewhat clean fashion, I used the 'Stinger Side Mount Post extenders'. Available from Amazon, ebay, etc. In fact, I ordered an extra set from ebay this morning to keep in stock. (At some point, I'll create a new post for your questions & move this stuff over to it). ** Installed the throttle linkage extender on the Monte. Needed a few adjustments, but that stuff is added to the Monte build link above. Stinger Battery Post Extender Swagelok fittings, used them exclusively at the compressor station and on the pipeline. Best fittings made. Once in a while I’ll see them used on automotive engines, but not often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 1 hour ago, 70Meangreen said: I just have to say thank you again Joe for documenting your project, which helps me and others with similar projects. Anyone who is doing any sort of restoration or a frame off restoration knows that this is not a task for the weak. You must be driven, dedicated and passionate to take on a project of this magnitude. Oh, and of course the fistful of hundred dollar bills…Lol!! You're very welcome, glad it is helping! I haven’t had time to read all of your posts for your build, but I will definitely make time to do that. Also, Mark is 100% right, the membership dues alone are worth the information that you have posted in this thread. This place in general is a bargain, for all the accurate information the members try to provide. See if you'll get good, solid advice on the Facebook groups.(Usually it's when members from here respond, that it's good info. There are a few guys on FB that aren't members here, that are very good though) Answers to your questions, and some additional questions: -I purchased the G-Force crossmember for the 4L80E but that didn’t work out. I had issues with way too much flex in that crossmember which was causing the frame to flex. Not good at all! I did call G-Force and they told me that it is intended for an A-body that has a boxed frame such as a convertible. Not stated when I purchased it. They did give me the option to return it. I’ve decided at this point to use the factory crossmember and modify it. Can you elaborate a little bit more on your re-engineering of the stock crossmember? The stock crossmember is rubber mounted. Did you eliminate the mounts and bolt directly to the frame? Did you keep the crossmember facing the same direction as factory or did you flip it around? Any details will be helpful. I looked into the G-Force route. The driveline angles alone would have put it way out of whack. I sort of documented it in my thread, but this link will take you right to it. Scroll down 3 or 4 more posts from that & you'll see the finished product. https://www.firstgenmc.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19368-new-guy-here/page/4/#comment-205504 - Which breather did you use on the right side of the engine and do you have any issues with oil seepage? Something I had in stock from years ago. Nothing special, and no issues. Probably a Mr. Gasket, Moroso, etc. -Where did you purchase your fuel/transmission lines from? Did they sell them in long lengths? I buy it by the spool, all sizes for brake lines & fuel lines. I've been using the 4Life Time Lines brand with good results. No issues bending, flaring, forming the ends etc. I usually got if from Amazon, but the prices have went up a lot. I see they offer 2 rolls of 3/8 direct from the manufacturer for less than Amazon. Plenty of other vendors though that sell the same type of tubing. I got the AN fittings from Summit, and also some from Amazon. Here is an example: https://4lifetimelines.com/products/copper-nickel-brake-line-tubing-2-coils-3-8-x-25 https://www.amazon.com/Brake-Line-Copper-Nickel-Tubing-Universal/dp/B07C8N5K95 -I noticed you don’t run the factory vacuum reservoir for the HVAC. Does your vacuum pump substitute the reservoir? 1972 Monte's didn't seem to use the reservoir. I'm almost certain my old 72 Custom had the black plastic bulb type, but my current one didn't have it, nor the countless other 72's I researched to make sure I didn't need one. I actually bought one early on in the rebuild when ordering parts, but didn't end up using it. Just make sure you have the check valve for the line. 1970-71 did have canisters from what I remember though. Little coffee can looking thing, lol If you want, I'll message you my phone number, to discuss the crossmember more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 24 minutes ago, John S said: Swage lok Really? Trying to correct my spelling, John? 😁 I have thousands of those fittings, valves, adapters, etc on hand. Used to work in the chemical industry. Brass, stainless, titanium, monel, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 No, I knew you spelled it right the first time I don’t know how that other word got in there guess now that I’m retired I should take a computer course. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jft69z Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 5 hours ago, John S said: No, I knew you spelled it right the first time I don’t know how that other word got in there guess now that I’m retired I should take a computer course. It would have been entirely possible though, I did go to public schools and most of that time was probably spent in auto shop 😁. We were laughing about it yesterday. I got a 95 in typing class, but spent about 3 days total in that class. I used to work on the teachers car. "What am I ever going to need typing for?"....if only I knew. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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