400 Small Block Build. 500+ HP

[70mcarlo]

Please say you beat out the ricer in the other lane

I gotta say, your posts are nice to look through, nicely documented pics, and pretty informitive!

The car looks great, and seems to be responding well to your mods!

Thanks for taking the time to post all the pics and document the details

 

[CrazyDavey]

yep, that's exactly what it's doing Justin..unloading very quickly. No weight transfer at all, the chassis is not working. The back end needs to come down and I would even put stock shocks in it before I would use the air shocks.

 

I'll send you my old airbag, put it in the right coil and start at 10 lbs....

[Winston Wolf]

 

Suspension, man I have learned a lot, I have made just as many gains from suspension as I have from drivetrain. Dave has already pointed out some good stuff. Your suspension is where your 60 lies, get a tenth off that and you'll be talking to folks about a rollbar. It would be good if we could see a picture of your car on level ground (race ready). Not sure why you have 3" spacers in the back but that's usually not idea (unless your ride height is really that low). Air shocks will seriously restrict the 4 link's ability to handle weight transer and need to go. As with Dave I run the QA1 single adjustables which allow you to make easy quick changes to compression and rebound for different track conditions (softer for a greasy track, stiffer for a track that's hooking). Installing a Anti Roll Bar (I use a BMR) helps equalize the weight transfer to both tires and in my case eliminated the need for any airbags. I also run the boxed lowers and Eddy adj uppers like Dave (also helps with setting proper pinion angle). When running take off the front sway bar (it's 6 bolts) to help loosen up the transfer. What really helped mine was loosening up the A arms. On the lowers back the nuts off until they put no pressure on the bushings, then double nut them with Loctite. On the uppers grind off those little serrated thingys on the A arm crossbolt to get rid of the bushing resistance. Then use a bolt on the ends that just bottoms out as it touches the outer washer (you should be able to move the washer when the bolt is tight) and Loctite it as well. This is the change that finally got me out of the 150 60's and into the 140's. I also use a straight 90/10 shock in the front (Calvert).

 

Just things I have done Justin, maybe some of it can help you out...Dave

 

I think for this year, I'll just get a set of cheap Comp Eng adjustable front drag shocks and set them at 90/10. I'll also use your suggestion of loosening up the a-arms. With those and lowering the rear end 2 inches, hopefully it will be enough for now. I'm going to try and keep the air shocks in until I figure out what ride height I like/works. Just keep them empty for racing. I do drive this thing, so I don't want a total crap handling/unsafe drag only setup.

 

Maybe this winter I'll get the boxed lowers, anti roll bar, and adjustable uppers. We'll see what the cheap route yields first.

[CrazyDavey]

sounds good Justin...most of this stuff won't really affect things too much on the street, just adjust the front shocks back when your done at the track....

[dbreese]

http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/dbreese_2007/?action=view&current=Cap0002.flv

 

Justin,

 

This was my old suspension setup that I posted earlier. The front end is pretty loose and the car was consistent on the 60'

Disregard the crossed up burnout.LOL!

 

David

 

[CrazyDavey]

looked like you got a little air there Dave.....hope you fixed that taillight....

[Winston Wolf]

 

Justin,

 

This was my old suspension setup that I posted earlier. The front end is pretty loose and the car was consistent on the 60'

Disregard the crossed up burnout.LOL!

 

David

 

 

That takes off pretty smooth. Did you loosen up the a-arms like that old white Chevelle? You can really tell on that video that the front end goes up and stays up until you're well out of sight. If you don't mind, could you measure the distance from your wheel wheel to the center of the wheel hub? I'm going to try and use that height as a benchmark when I cut down my spring spacers this weekend.

 

How was that thing driving on the road with no swaybar and the 90/10's?

 

I looked at some time slips, the best 60 I have ever had is a 1.701, but most seem to be in the 1.72-1.74 range, not too constant of times. I think this car has enough torque to get to 1.65's pretty easy.

 

This thread is turning from a head cam sway to a how to build the whole car thread....not sure if that matters to people.

[dbreese]

I would love to Justin but I still have no rear under the car and it is sitting on jackstands!LOL. I haven't done anything to loosen up the upper front control arms but the front s/b is removed and I do have the the 90/10 shocks up front. As for handling well...... lets say it is no threat to the the autocross crowd but if you use your head and drive conservatively on the street and highways you will be fine. I completed 2 Hot Rod Magazine Drag Weeks with this setup each included over 1000 miles of driving on all kinds of roads with no issues.

 

David

[CrazyDavey]

old white Chevelle!!! I beg your pardon sonny...bring it on..

 

now Dave, about that taillight......

[dbreese]

Still doesn't work!LOL

 

David

[Winston Wolf]

Worked on the suspension a bit this weekend. I did get the Edelbrock upper control arms. They were the best value in a double adjustable as they included bushings. I also got some Comp adjustable drag shocks for the front.

 

Removed the front sway bar and installed the shocks set to 90/10. Took the 3" spacers out of the springs in the rear. Sits really low in the back now. I don't care for the look. I had to go to town with the grinder to clearance the inside fender lip. I think I will need to take even more out (about 1/2" on both sides to be safe) Street tires are 275/60-15.

 

I decided not to put in the uppers at this point. There is just no way I can get the upper bushings out of the old rear end while its in the car. Plus I didn't have the right extensions for the bolts to the frame, tough to get at. This thing has never been restored so they've been in there for 40+ years. I'll take the rear out this winter and put new lowers and springs in right away.

 

Here is how the car sits now:

 

 

Here it is with 1" lift. Top of tape is no air in the shocks Probably where it should be:

 

 

Here is where it was before. 3" up from original springs:

 

 

I think I may rebuild the front end this winter and lower the front an inch, that will leave me a bit of rake yet.

 

Driving without the sway bar and the 90/10s in, it does float around like a boat.

[dbreese]

Justin,

 

My Monte sits about like yours in the first photo. I have 275/60-15 MT DR. You'll get use to the way it drives without the front s/b and the loose shocks. I'm betting that your 60's will drop with your setup. Good luck!!

 

David

[BAMC1369]

I say when your done at the drag strip put in the 1" drop springs in the front and lift the back up again. Thats how mine sits and i love the look, i know not the best for the drag strip but looks are important too.

[Winston Wolf]

My cousin and I headed to the stip today. Got only 1 pass in today before I wrecked. He has a wicked 68 GTO that was running well. Here's a few pics, a movie of my run and one of his. The in-car run with the GTO is a 10.90 @ 123 pass.

 

 

 

 

[Winston Wolf]

2nd pass I was excited about the new better launch, but something happened. Blew out the ring gear in my rear end. It seems to have happened when I went to do my burn out. If you watch the video, you can hear it's all weird. Like it was in neutral when I got on it in the pit. I thought it wasn't in gear or something, so I was messing with the shifter. As soon as I took off I knew something was wrong.

 

Has anyone seen failures like this before? I have never broken a rear end before, so I have no point of reference. You can see how the metal sheared. These were new Richmond 4.56 gears I put in this summer. Backlash was correct, and they had a good pattern. Any ideas on the what causes this type of failure?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CrazyDavey]

sorry that happend Justin, the first run was nice though, I could tell the difference in the launch the minute you did your burnout. Hard to see from the pictures, sort of looks like they have had some severe heat or something. Richmonds usually hold up well, do you run a cover with a bearing support? Other than that it could be just one of those deals...

[Winston Wolf]

Yeah, they look like a clean break. Perhaps it was just a fluke. I have been doing some reading and it sound like if the carier is allowed to move too much, that can cause a ring gear failure. I am (was) running a stock cover with stock bearing caps. This is a Moroso Brute Stregth 4 series carrier.

 

Can anyone that has used the adjustable pinion spacer deal chime in please? I don't want to mess with a crush sleeve this time around. Any info or advice from somebody who has used one would be great.

 

Also, How does the fancy diff cover preload the carrier? I'm not 100% on that one either.

 

I've went from 2.73 to 3.55 to 3.73 to 4.10 to 4.56 in this car, and this is the first issue I have had.

[CrazyDavey]

I just know the weakest link in a 12 bolt is the bearing caps. They will stretch and worst case break. My cover (Moroso) simply has two support bolts that are adjusted in to contact the caps and limit movement and provide additional support....

 

 

[Winston Wolf]

I just know the weakest link in a 12 bolt is the bearing caps. They will stretch and worst case break. My cover (Moroso) simply has two support bolts that are adjusted in to contact the caps and limit movement and provide additional support....

 

 

Are you using billet caps or just the stock ones?

[502ci]

Nice pics and video but too bad about the damage. I could tell you had some steep gears in there because if I counted your shifts right it sounded like you were in overdrive well before the finish line.

[Sam (Bones)]

did you keep your burnout going until it hooked?

 

looks like a "shock-load" failure

[72MC]

It is never fun to lose teeth .

 

Winston, hopefully I can keep this explanation as simple as it actually is. The pinion spacers that Richmond produces are very easy to use. I personally see no reason to ever use a crush sleeve again after using the pinion spacer on a number of rears that I have built. They are not "adjustable" per say. You use none, one, or a combination of the supplied shims to obtain the proper pinion preload. It's that simple. Same principle as if you were crushing the sleeve. You still need the proper preload.

 

Some things I noticed about your pics. It looks as if your gear mesh was to deep. I say that because your pinion was chewing into the carrier case. That would or should not have happened just because you lost some teeth. It's too uniform to be made from the loose teeth. Was your pinion sloppy after the failure or was it still rotating smoothly? Sloppy movement could be one reason for the teeth marks in the carrier case which in turn means your pinion was driving too deep into the ring gear.

 

Also, something I have learned from the guys I have learned rear building from, cut the portion of the cover gasket out where the oil goes into the oiling holes for the axles. Those gaskets come with a rectangular hole up in that area. That little hole sometimes will cause lack of oil flow to the axle bearings. I know its a small item but it is just a "peace of mind" thing.

 

Bottom line, use the spacer, don't waste your time with the crush sleeves. - Dave

[Mike 57]

Are you running "pro" gears or street gears

[dbreese]

Man Justin sorry for misfortune!! Your first fun was awesome and you can tell that your suspension work is paying off with a 1.6's 60'. I think you and Dave are on the right track with the carrier issue. The cap ( I think it is the one on the left) can get stressed and move which could have cocked the carrier causing the the mesh between the pinion and the ring gear to get boogered up. Hope there was no damage to the carrier. I ran a heavy duty cover with preload on my old 8.2 cause they are weak to begin with and never had an issue. I have a HD cover on the rear(Moser 12 Bolt) that is going in. Cheap insurance for sure. The preload will keep the cap from trying to spit out the back.

 

As far as using spacer instead crush sleeve on the pinion I think MC72 (Dave Reem) can give you some guidance on that.

 

David

 

 

Dang got treed

[Winston Wolf]

Nice pics and video but too bad about the damage. I could tell you had some steep gears in there because if I counted your shifts right it sounded like you were in overdrive well before the finish line.

 

You counted right, but what you are hearing as 4th gear is actually when I engage the torque converter clutch. It acts like a whole extra gear. It's in 3rd, clutch locked.